April 2022

Patrick McGinnis 0:06
I was angry with the people I worked for, for failing me and not being leaders and providing zero, they just weren’t present. You know, when companies blow up, everybody runs for cover and hides. And I saw that, it was like, so I felt a lot of resentment towards the people who didn’t sort of fix the problem. Not understanding that they too were, you know, completely at a loss of what to do. And myself, I think, for just, you know, for what I didn’t realise at the time, or I guess, maybe I realised, but now I see it so clearly, is that I had decided to take a path that really wasn’t going to be the best path for me, I would have never been great at that. I would have been good. But I wouldn’t have been great, I wouldn’t have been truly happy. I was chasing the wrong things. And now that I have sort of switched everything around and done it the other way, I recognise like, what a difference that is in just your daily like, mindset and how you feel. But I wasn’t there yet. I was just angry and frustrated and lost.

Gary Crotaz 1:20
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of the IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m delighted to be joined by an old friend Patrick J. McGinnis. Patrick is based in New York, and is perhaps most famous as the person who coined the term FOMO. That’s Fear Of Missing Out for the uninitiated, which you wrote about in a 2004 article in the student newspaper of Harvard Business School. In the same article, he introduced the concept of FOBO, or Fear Of a Better Option, a common cause of decision paralysis. But inventing these new terms is just one of many achievements. Patrick is an author, speaker, venture capitalist, expert entrepreneur, and the host of a thriving podcast FOMO Sapiens, now with over 2 million downloads, I’m quite jealous! Committed to creating a world where FOMO is harnessed for good, Patrick is dedicated to sharing the tools for mastering decision making, curating powerful networks and building successful businesses. His TED talk on how to make faster decisions has been viewed well over a million times. In Patrick’s first book, The 10% Entrepreneur, he shows you how by investing just 10% of your time and resources, you can become an entrepreneur without losing a steady paycheck. It’s my small claim to fame that my wife and I have featured somewhere within the book as a case study. His second book, Fear Of Missing Out is about practical decision-making in a world of overwhelming choice. Talking to Patrick always brings me such huge energy and joy. So let’s get into it. Patrick, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Patrick McGinnis 3:48
It’s a pleasure to be here. Congratulations on having a podcast! Welcome to the wonderful and weird world of podcasting!

Gary Crotaz 3:55
Thank you so much. I’m, I’m enjoying it very much and great to have guests like, like you coming along to share your, share your insights, share your stories. So there’s an Unlock Moment in your story when you started building your writing and speaking career. But before we get into that, tell us a little bit about who you were, what you were like, what you were doing before that time, what were you like growing up? What journey did you get to go on to get into finance and investing?

Patrick McGinnis 4:18
I was a, and remain I think, a very energetic person. So grew up in a small town in Maine, in New England, and a very kind of blue-collar place where, you know, people generally worked at local businesses. You know, they didn’t necessarily move away all that much. Probably about half of my class went on to college in my high school class, the other half did not. So it was a place, you know it was, it was a small town kind of existence. And I was always very sort of keen to look beyond my sort of immediate environment and thought about moving a million different places. And I ended up in college in Washington DC at Georgetown, because I thought I wanted to work in government. And then I did an internship and quickly realised that working on Capitol Hill was not for me. And then I sort of was lost. And I spent my junior year in Argentina. And I came back and I was obsessed with Latin America and decided I wanted to build a career there. And so that really brought me into finance, because the easiest way to sort of get a job that I could figure out was to get a job doing Latin American investment banking. And I also had, you know, it seemed like the thing that you, smart people did was to go into finance. And so that’s what all the other kids were doing. And so I figured, why not me. And that was really what brought me down the path of getting involved in Wall Street. And, you know, this whole, there was not like a… I mean, I sort of chose it based on the notion that I could make good money. I didn’t really choose it based on my particular feeling that I was going to be great at it, which is kind of crazy to think now. But I just sort of did it because everybody did.

Gary Crotaz 6:00
And how did you find your way to Latin America, what was the first step that you took there?

Patrick McGinnis 6:06
So I was always interested in the region, funnily enough. I wrote, I found later on this, I wrote this report in Spanish class in high school about, like a fictional account of my year living in Argentina. And it was, actually I did a reasonably close approximation of what it is to live in Argentina. But this is like pre-internet days. But then I got a junior year of college scholarship from the Rotary Foundation that sent me down to Buenos Aires and paid for my entire year. And I had a little allowance, so I was able to travel all over the region. And it really, I decided, you know, I just was very, I’m good at languages. And so I learned Spanish, and I got quite fluent. And so I just felt like I fit in there in a really cool way. And so I just, I swear, it was like the first time I sort of figured out who I was, and found a unique identity that I was like, really excited about. And so I kind of overdid it, I kind of like thought I was from Argentina for a while there, but but it was a great opportunity for me to just try on something new and learn something new and sort of see possibilities that I hadn’t seen before.

Gary Crotaz 7:13
And it’s really interesting, something I’ve always found interesting about you is that there are people who are in finance, banking, consulting, advisory, who stay in a big city, but they might advise on things, you know, all around the world. And then there’s other people who really feel at home at the coalface. And you’ve travelled to over 100 countries around the world over the years?

Patrick McGinnis 7:33
104 as of today, we should add some more this year. But yeah.

Gary Crotaz 7:37
It’s amazing. What’s the last country you went to for the first time, do you remember?

Patrick McGinnis 7:41
Actually, it was just this year, I went to a place called Socotra, which is an island that’s part of Yemen for New Years.

Gary Crotaz 7:49
Amazing. What attracts you to, to going to unusual places around the world?

Patrick McGinnis 7:55
So in the early days, when I first started doing this, I had never travelled much as a kid, we just didn’t do that. We didn’t really, nobody did. You know, it was a different time. And so I went to Disney once when I was like, in fifth grade, but I just didn’t really go many places. And then, when I went to college, and I had this year abroad, I had a friend who said, Oh, I’m gonna fly down to Argentina. And let’s go hiking in the south. And I thought, like, Okay, why not, right? But I wasn’t particularly intrepid, I was quite the opposite of intrepid, I don’t even know the word – unintrepid? And then I travelled with another friend from, from Colombia to Argentina, by land principally. And that’s when I really learned, it was like a great education in how to travel. And so having done that, then I sort of just, my work would always take me overseas, I was working in investing in Latin America. So I was constantly on a plane. And my job after business school was investing in emerging markets. So I was constantly on a plane to like Asia and Africa and things like that. And so the more that I travelled, I would just always say, Well, I’m in the region anyway, why don’t I dot dot dot and add on something. And then you know, you get to the point, when you when you kind of have become more of an intrepid traveller, you start to get a bit more risk-tolerant and adventurous. And you say things like, I just saw an article about Chernobyl, I want to go to Chernobyl, which I did do, or oh, I read a book about Uzbekistan, I need to go to Uzbekistan. And so that has been it, I will confess that there was some, a little bit of country counting at one point when I was trying to get to 100. And I was like, I’m gonna go to Luxembourg. Which, you don’t need to do that. There’s really nothing there for you. But, but other than that, it’s generally the way I do it now. It’s just like, if I’m in a region, and I want to visit a place I go, otherwise I just think of big ideas like I was thinking, but I’d like to visit Iraq which my parents if they’re listening, I’m sorry, I’m gonna do that to you. But that’s the kind of stuff I want to do interesting things that maybe require a bit more work but that are you know, not they’re not horribly dangerous, but at the same time, they’re not, you know, going to Florida.

Gary Crotaz 10:00
I think that’s really interesting in that it gives an insight into something of your personality, which I think will come through in, in more of the story. So tell me your perspective on safe options in terms of work.

Patrick McGinnis 10:15
Yeah, safe options! I was known by my friends as Captain Safety. I was the guy, they used to make fun of me all the time, because we’d be like in a car, and maybe we got in like a, sort of a, not an altercation. But there was a, you know, kind of bad blood between our car and another car. And I would say, like, Don’t antagonise that person, they could kill us. Or we’d go on, we went to Costa Rica, we were on 4x4s, like these four-wheeler kind of things. And I was the slowest one at the back of the line, because I didn’t want to go too fast. And so that was kind of my default mindset for much of my life. I was really about going for the safe option. The prestigious option, always. I wanted the best, but I wanted safe. And so you know, my career was, my whole kind of like design for my career was, Let me go to some company that’s very, very safe, then work in like a more exciting part of it. And therefore I’ll have the upside of the exciting bit, but I’ll be very, very safe and like I can’t disappear.

Gary Crotaz 11:18
And then what happened?

Patrick McGinnis 11:19
Well, you know, best laid plans… What happened was, I was wrong! I had, I had a mini version of this, when I went off to business school, I had been working at the private equity group of JP Morgan. And then when I was in school, basically, they dismantled the group. And I couldn’t, I thought, I assumed I’d just go back and work there. And they were like, No. And so I had, I had to reinvent myself. And I remember at the time, this was, I had a real kind of a hard time getting a job out of business school, because I had a very specific experience set, which was private equity in Latin America. And people were like, you know, that was out of fashion. And they’re like, You’re American anyway, so it was really tough. And then I got this job at AIG Capital Partners doing private equity. And it was, you know, a very cool part of AIG. AIG was like, top 20 biggest companies in the world, I was like, This is great. Well, unfortunately, anybody who remembers the financial crisis in 2008, would recall that AIG was the, was the sort of the most spectacular of all of the terrible things that happened, it just blew up in spectacular fashion. I had shares in the company that fell 97%. And my career blew up. And it was sort of like, not only did my company just blow up, but, you know, it was like a very controversial place that people thought we were immoral and stuff like that. So I saw this, I had taken the right path, you know, that I thought was the safe path, I had done all the things you’re supposed to do. Like, I’d gone to Harvard Business School, which, you know, I’d never even dreamed up, but I did it. And I thought, well, you know, at least I’m going to be you know, reasonably successful here, you know, because, like, it’s, it’s a great institution. And instead, I ended up in a very bad place, very unhappy. Not… Physically unwell. And, you know, everything I had put my faith in, I realised was a lie. And I was completely cynical at that point.

Gary Crotaz 13:15
So it really challenged some fundamental beliefs that you’d had for a long time?

Patrick McGinnis 13:21
It was like learning there’s no, there’s no Easter Bunny or something where like, when you’re a kid, sorry, if anybody’s children are listening, by the way, but, but it’s sort of like you learn that and you’re like, but wait a minute, I, I left candy and the Easter Bunny, I, when I was a kid, I took the Easter Bunny’s cup that he drank out of, or she, I don’t want to gender the Bunny. And I put a piece of tape that said, The Easter Bunny drank out of this, and I displayed it in our home. So when I found out, like, my faith was shattered, and I was like, you know, I didn’t want to leave anything for the Bunny anymore. The same thing happened with capitalism and the business world. I was like, I did I play by your rules. And I ended up getting tossed aside, and I don’t want this anymore.

Gary Crotaz 14:05
And how did that leave you feeling?

Patrick McGinnis 14:08
Well, quite angry, in the beginning, frankly. I was very angry. I felt despair.

Gary Crotaz 14:17
Who were you angry with?

Patrick McGinnis 14:17
Probably myself for believing. I was angry with the people I worked for for failing me and not being leaders and providing zero – they just weren’t present. You know, when companies blow up, everybody runs for cover and hides. And I saw that, it was like, so I felt a lot of resentment towards the the people who didn’t sort of fix the problem. Not understanding that they too were, you know, completely at a loss of what to do. And myself, I think for just, you know, for… What I didn’t realise at the time, or I guess maybe I realised but now I see it so clearly, is that I had decided to take a path that really wasn’t going to be the best path for me, I would have never been great at that. I would have been good. But I wouldn’t have been great, I wouldn’t have been truly happy. I was chasing the wrong things. And now that I have sort of switched everything around and done it the other way, I recognise like, what a difference that is in just your daily like, mindset and how you feel. But I wasn’t there yet. I was just angry and frustrated and lost.

Gary Crotaz 15:38
And it’s really common that when people are faced with extraordinary change, unexpected change, that to build to a more positive future and a positive outcome it can be almost inevitable that you kind of have to go through that dip that is anger, frustration, despair, guilt, hostility, often. And you got to start to rebuild. So when you were going through that curve, what was the point when you started to feel like you’re bottoming out and starting to build the future? What was that?

Patrick McGinnis 16:15
Yeah, that’s a great question. Because it’s true what you say, I think you just nailed it, which is that, like, so few people make big change without having to get smacked on the face. You just don’t, because the status quo is more comfortable, right. And I know that sounds obvious, but think about it. It’s so true. And so you need to have this hero’s journey, or whatever, to get to the other side. And I think for me, as I think back on this – boy, it’s like, this is like traumatising as I think about it, because it was so difficult. For me, I got really sick. And so, I was literally, I had blurry vision for six months, I had night sweats, I was all, there was something wrong, they never figured it out. It was stress-related. But I remember, I was in London, my best friend and I went to London for New Years. And he was a real support for me at the time. I’m still so thankful for that. And I remember he was trying to help me with some work. And I couldn’t read the contract because my vision was so blurry. And I just thought like, this is awful. And I had a couple of months of that, I had four or five, six months of that feeling. And then I decided I had to really pull things together. And that meant getting healthy, physically healthy. And so I made a bunch of changes and, and then I went on this trip to India, and my friend was getting married and I wasn’t gonna go, but I was like, I need to get, I need to go somewhere, I need to get out of here. And I went, and I when I left on that plane, I remember I was really sick and I got there. And it was right after the Taj was bombed, was attacked by the terrorists. And I stayed there. Because I just thought that I was, you know, I admire the Taj company and the founder Ratan Tata, I’ve always admired this company, and I was like, I’m gonna go there, and I’m gonna be there, and I’m gonna spend my dollars in their hotel. Because, you know, they need people like me to do that. And I got there and it was all, smelled like a fire, and, still. And I went outside because I couldn’t sleep. And I walked around the neighbourhood, and I saw all these, you know, India at night, many children sleeping on the street. And I mean, it was everywhere. And I just thought to myself, like, Man, my problems are not that bad. You know, they just aren’t. And these kids are sleeping outside. And this hotel got attacked, and people died. And yeah, so I lost my job. And you know, I didn’t lose my job. But my job lost me or whatever. And I hate it, and I’m miserable. Well like, this is not the end of the road for me, I have so many opportunities. And so that was it. I mean, it sounds so like I wrote it, like a screenplay or something, but I swear to God, maybe that’s just how I remember it. But I remember, what’s crazy is, I went to that wedding. I had a wonderful time. I got off the plane, when I came back to the US. And I noticed something, which is my vision was back. And I felt healthy again. And it was like, it was insane. I just was like, Wow, I like I feel like me again. And that was the beginning of the next phase of all the things that I’ve done.

Gary Crotaz 19:25
It’s, it’s an amazing story. And it’s amazing because I started to see these experiences, a lot of different people that I’ve spoken to on the podcast, but also in, in coaching work, this idea that for a lot of people, there’s a moment, I mean there’s a lot going on over a period of time, which you’ve talked about. But then there’s a moment where you find clarity, and just there you were talking about this. I would call it an Unlock Moment, which is that perspective, where you know, you’re seeing people on the street and realising that your problems are significant for you but in the grand scheme of things not so significant. And that helps you to turn that corner. And often people can remember at that point where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking. And it’s a very, very powerful experience and quite an emotional one often when you look back to that moment.

Patrick McGinnis 20:18
And you know what’s also true, I think, and you can tell me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am, is – You can’t, people can’t tell you this stuff. Like, I’m sure people said, like, Patrick, come on, you’ll be fine. It’s not that bad. I needed to see it and experience it. Like the universe had to give me the tough lesson that I didn’t know I needed. And, you know, it’s so hard to do that, unless you do, you have to put yourself in places where you’re outside of your comfort zone, because you’re not going to have a great insight sitting at your desk. You may do, you may do, but probably not. You need to, that’s why travel is so important, right? You see the stuff that you couldn’t, you couldn’t have seen the day before. And it just forces you into a reality that you didn’t know existed. And that pushes you into kind of thinking about stuff differently.

Gary Crotaz 21:07
I think that’s exactly right. And I think that you can’t, you just can’t rush it. I say to people, you can’t think to a deadline, you can’t say, I’m going to fix this by Friday, because you might not be in the right environment before Friday to come to that realisation. That realisation will come to you when your mind is ready to get there. And when your mind is ready to accept it. So I think I’m a great believer in – sometimes you just kind of have to wait, you know, as you say, you could put yourself in a situation that can just give you new perspective. But even then, it comes, and you know when you’re there, you know when you’re in that moment, where you suddenly found that clarity, and once you found it, you never go back, because it’s come from, from, from you. And I think that’s really powerful. So, so what happened next?

Patrick McGinnis 21:58
Well, so that was good, to have that moment, as you said, and you don’t go back, it’s like you have a secular shift in your thinking. It’s like you found religion or something, or un-found religion! But then you have the next challenge, which is okay, what do I do, right. And as I think back on my time, this is all … it was a long period actually of wandering in the desert as it were, like a, like a, an explorer, as it were, I was really unsure of what to do. Now, I had a couple of distinct advantages that I could benefit from, the first being that I’d saved money, so I had financial flexibility, not like crazy amounts, but I you know, I could I could take time off. Second is that I’m very good, once I’ve set my mind to something, I do it, I just do. I’m, I’m extraordinarily committed to things that I decide to do. I always have been, and so, and that’s good, bad and ugly. I mean, there’s some downsides to that. But I was like, Okay, here’s what’s going to happen. I’m going to quit my job. I’m going to take a sabbatical. I’m going to get in great shape and take care of myself. I’m going to, you know, those, we’re going to make those changes right now. And so I did actually all those things. I lost like 30 pounds, I started running 50 miles a week, because I’m a lunatic. No moderation! And then I ended up going in and quitting my job, which turned into like, it’s a long story, but I ended up staying on as an advisor. And so that was wonderful for me. And I never even entertained that as a possibility. And then I was able to take, I took a sabbatical. And you know, I was sort of like, well, I don’t know how long I’ll do this for and… My brother gave me a very interesting piece of advice. He said, get up every morning not knowing what you’re going to do, for six months, or three months or something. And I ended up, I remember, we were sitting at this restaurant called La Bonbonniere in the West Village in New York. And I was like, Michael, that’s ridiculous. Like, I can’t do that. You are, you know, you’re a jazz musician. You’re creative. You can do those things. I cannot. I am like wired for execution. And I did, though, exactly what he said, for longer than he proposed. And it was extremely unburdening of all the sort of junk that I had built up around what I cared about, what was important, what I was good at. And I allowed myself to sort of explore, for example, writing! I was the prodigious memo writer, I would write these memos at my, at my job in private equity, that were like novelistically interesting. People would be like, Wow, that memo about the retail chain in Turkey was a page turner. Like, it was so compelling. I, my parents convinced me to try to write fiction. Now, I wrote the worst piece of fiction. I mean, I wrote half of a horrible book. But what I learned was that I could write more than 1,000 words, and that got me on the path to writing a book. That’s the kind of stuff I did. I explored a bunch of opportunities, consulted some. And then I realised like consulting is great, but you don’t build equity, so I started making small investments and becoming an advisor to companies that built up a bunch of stuff. And so I ended up really redefining what it is to have a career in a way that was like, extremely aligned with my, my likes, my passions, my talents, and I had no idea I could have done this, like, it’s so shocking to me. Because it’s taken decades, so you know, you look back and you’re like, you forget what it’s like to go to the office every day and like, hate your job. But it’s like, what, it’s just, it’s an amazing place to be if you can figure out how to do it, where you love it.

Gary Crotaz 25:43
And there’s two elements of your career that I think are really interesting to explore. One is the kind of uber-portfolio nature of what you do, you do you do a wide variety of different things that you love, the connecting theme is that you love them. And then the other is that you’ve gone from being in a sort of large corporate environment to something which is much more about your own personal brand, which I think is really interesting for people to hear about as well, because there’s a lot of people out there at the moment trying to build their own sort of personal one-man or one-woman businesses. What does, what does that portfolio mean for you in terms of, you know, having the breadth of things that you’re doing, but also keeping it under control?

Patrick McGinnis 26:30
First of all, I want to say, Gary, you may be new at this, but you’re a very good podcast host!

Gary Crotaz 26:34
Thank you!

Patrick McGinnis 26:35
I just want to say that because I, just I was like, these are really good questions! I should learn from him! So okay, let’s talk portfolio. Okay, so, obviously I did not have diversification when I worked at AIG. I was like, I had AIG as my job. And I had the stock and I had the carry and the funds, and whew! I was really exposed. And so I got, when everything fell apart, it was such a wake up call for me. I was just like, What are you doing, Patrick? You invest for a living, you build diversified portfolios, and your, your life is not diversified. So it was a really valuable insight that … it hurt, really stung at the time. But I was like, my reaction to that was actually to go quite in the opposite extreme, which is I’m going to get a bunch of, I’m going to really diversify. So I’m going to do, you know, I’m going to have some sort of day job, which, you know, generates income, which maybe I don’t love everything, but it gives, you know, pays the bills. So I did consulting and stuff. And then on the side, I used my savings and some of my income to start investing in companies. I invested in some funds that generated deal flow for me. And then I started to realise, you know, people would come to me and say, Oh, will you invest in my company? And I’d say, you know, no, because it’s too early stage too risky, I’m just not sure. And then they’d say, Well, would you like to be an advisor, we’ll give you shares, and you can help us on your board or whatever. So I started doing that more and more, and that sort of diversified into then getting into writing and speaking and stuff like that. So I really, what I have learned about that, number one, okay, so on the upside, it is, it is fast and furious. It’s fun, you get to do a lot of cool things, it generates a lot of interesting opportunities. When things go badly, like when the pandemic hit. I, I was shocked at how resilient my portfolio was – not everything, but it was like, it was shocking to me how, how diversification really helped me at that time. And also, I would say, your opportunity to generate like extremely outsized returns is much higher than if you just work in a company. So that’s all the good stuff, the bad stuff is it’s very unpredictable. Like you constantly have to be out there generating, and so that can be exhausting. It can feel like a grind. You never feel, you can get a scarcity mindset where you’re like, Well, I don’t know what I’m going to make next year. So how can I do this or that? Those are challenges that I think a lot of people deal with. It can be lonely, you can be, you can not be leveraging other people, you’re like a kind of a solopreneur. So you’re doing everything all the time, if you don’t find people to help you. And so I’ve had to kind of navigate through that. And I feel like I’ve done a reasonably good job. I feel like it’s, I can’t imagine sort of going back to another arrangement. But there are times where I definitely think oh it’s like, Wow, wouldn’t it be great to just be like a VP at some bank and just turn up and like, even if I do nothing that day, I get paid. That’d be nice.

Gary Crotaz 29:44
And that’s interesting, because that brings you on to personal brand. So you know, you could be that sort of anonymous role within an organisation and, elements of that I think I’m hearing, sound quite attractive to you now. But what you’re doing now is dependent on your, your personal brand. And we’ve talked before, you gave me great advice when I was thinking about starting the podcast, and you said to me, it’s about you more than it’s about anything else, and you got to be prepared to be out there. So when, when you were building on the way through, was it a drive and a motivation to be personally famous? Was that important? Or was that something that you were less comfortable with?

Patrick McGinnis 30:30
I’m going to tell you something right now, that is going to be highly embarrassing. But I’m giving you a scoop on your podcast about Patrick McGinnis, which is this. I once applied to be on Big Brother, Argentina. Now what does that mean? I know, it’s pretty stupid. I thought I’d be good. Why did I do that? Because I was always more interested in being, I don’t want to say the word famous. Famous is that’s like, not interesting to me. But I wanted to be known. That was more important to me than being rich, I guess. Now, what does that mean to me today, now that I’m, you know, not a child, when like I applied to Big Brother when I was 22. What I, what it means is I’m much more interested, like, obviously, I want to be financially well off, like, you need to have the basics covered, and more. But I’m more interested in like, being able to, like, have an impact, because of who I am. And being asked to sit at the table. And, and that’s super-hard, though, because first of all, you have to figure out what who you are and how you want to be presented, because you have to, we can get into this, but brand building is it’s deciding what part of you you want to put out to the world. I don’t tell everybody everything, I never would do. But then number two, it’s sort of like, once you’re in the game, and you put yourself out there – it’s also really hard, like you go to some event, like you go to some… I went to some event a couple of weeks ago, that had a lot of like, very well known people at it. And I’m like, Well, what am I doing here and like you feel outgunned, which is stupid, because you’re in the room where it happens. So just like go meet them, right. But there’s a lot of insecurity that can come with that. And you never, it’s like, well, you know, Adam Grant’s so much bigger than me, I guess I’m not very good, that kind of stuff. And so I get it now why artists and other people who are constantly putting themselves out there can be so fragile, because there’s so much rejection in this world, and so you have to really know what your values are and what you care about. And it’s hard because I’ve had this experience recently where you start, you, the danger is that you start to, you start to value other people’s opinion of you, like you’re looking for validation from things like oh, I got, I was on this podcast, or I got this interview or whatever, I got the speaking thing. And you have to just stay away from that. Because the whole reason you get into this stuff is out of passion. And if you start to outsource how you value yourself to other people, you are not going to end up in a happy place. So that’s really, that’s a big part of… I guess, I’ve been thinking about this year about as you build your brand, making it something that’s like, really aligned with who you are inside as much as possible. Therefore, you’re always like, it’s easier to just… like when it’s aligned with who you are, it’s pretty easy to just be you. And then you’re kind of living your brand values.

Gary Crotaz 33:26
I do a lot of work with strengths. And I do a lot of work with with the Gallup CliftonStrengths model, which a lot of people have done. And there’s a particular strength which really, really encompasses what you’re talking about here. Which is for some people a strength and for other people not and it’s called Significance. And, and it is you are at your best when you are in the spotlight. And for some people, in the spotlight means literally being on stage, you know, the sort of Richard Branson model of leading a business. But for other people significance means I’m at my best just when I know that I personally made a difference. But it’s not necessarily that anybody else even knows that I did what I did. And I find it one of the most interesting ones to work with people on because when people get into that space, there are so many negative things that come through in terms of other people saying well, that’s your ego coming through or you’re showing off or you’re outperforming, whatever it is. But actually, for those people that’s them at their best, you know, they’re most engaged, they’re most energised, they’re most impactful when when they’re in that place. And I think that, you know, what you’re describing here is, you know, you have to be careful not to trip over the blind spots of having Significance, but it can be an incredibly powerful strength if you understand it and use it in in the right way. So I think that, that that Significance coming through here is, is, is, is a really interesting one, and I think is really driven you in now, you know, achieving the things that you’ve achieved over the years. And I know, you know, you started out your first book was The 10% Entrepreneur. But then I think that there was a big sort of kick up in your impact, in your profile when FOMO came around. So tell us the story of, you know, where where FOMO came from and how that impacted your journey.

Patrick McGinnis 35:23
Yeah, FOMO is my, it definitely was important in being able to do anything that I did, because when you are creating a brand, if you can’t get people to pay attention, then it’s really hard and FOMO was the tool that I used. I was, I invented FOMO a long time ago now, nearly 20 years ago. I had entered Harvard Business School. And I had just been in New York during 9/11. And so I’d seen that up close. And I remember just I had taken the GMAT the day before. And then that night, celebrated in lower Manhattan, saw the towers for the last time, woke up and they were gone. Or they were in flames, I should say. And then, like many people at the time, I just sort of, I was terrified, I didn’t know where the world was going to go, I just questioned everything. And I thought, you know, life is so short, I’ve got to live every moment to the fullest. And when I entered business school, I had never anticipated being able to go to a place like Harvard, it just wasn’t on my radar. And when I got in, I was completely thrilled. And my sort of, my sort of approach to being in school there was like, I’m in this very special place that is so unique, and offers me so much opportunity, I must avail myself of everything. And I tried to do everything all the time, to the point of being completely stressed, and stretched. And I started calling that feeling FOMO, Fear Of Missing Out. And I wrote an article in our school newspaper, a satirical article, that was the first time it was ever used anywhere. And then 10 years later, it made the dictionary, which is very helpful. And I’ll tell you why. Because Gary’s wife, Mildred, and I were trying to sell my first book, The 10% Entrepreneur. And I love Mildred, and so I tell the story because it’s so funny now. I was getting frustrated, because Mildred kept on saying, Patrick, you’re not going to sell this book unless you put yourself out there more, you need to build platform and you need to write an article in this magazine, or she’d be like, You need to pitch magazines, and I would pitch magazines, and they would get like, no response. Right? So I was like, You know what, Mildred? Like, I can’t do this. And frankly, like, you need to just sell the book. I don’t care, like sell the book. And we were having this, we were at an impasse where I was getting frustrated, and she was probably feeling frustrated. And we were just both like, ay ay ay. And then the article about, somebody wrote an article about me inventing FOMO that went viral. And two weeks later, Mildred, I sent her the article, and she says, she’s so smart, she was like, she took that article and turned it into a book deal within two weeks. So that is the story, the improbable story of how I got published. And it really is because of FOMO becoming a thing and my name getting attached with it at the right time, just changed everything.

Gary Crotaz 38:08
So 2004, when you wrote that article, it wasn’t a big thing. That wasn’t the time when it went viral. It was years later, when somebody looked back and tracked it.

Patrick McGinnis 38:19
Yeah, I’ve done a whole forensic analysis, actually, I hired like a online sleuth to do the research. And what happened was, you know, it was very popular at school. And it stayed within the vocabulary of HBS. And then it spread to other MBA programmes. It was written about in 2007, by Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine, about this phenomenon at business schools called FOMO, blah, blah, blah, it started at Harvard, my name was not included there, unfortunately. Otherwise, I might have realised it had become a thing. And then it was written about in some other places, and slowly over time, spread into the tech world, and then it when was massified, but it didn’t get added to the dictionary until 2014 or 2013.

Gary Crotaz 39:04
And what have you done with it now in terms of building that, that platform? So what stories do you tell around it? What advice do you do give around it?

Patrick McGinnis 39:12
So I have now, you know, it was funny. In the beginning, I didn’t know what to do with it, to be honest with you, like when it got, became a thing. I was really focused on The 10% Entrepreneur, which I love as well, it’s my other little baby. And I think it’s a really important concept. But as I travelled the world, I was lucky enough to be invited to travel all over the place to do speaking about 10% because the US State Department was very sort of supportive of the the ideas in that book, they felt that it was a great message to share all over the place. So they sent me like to Africa and Asia and I’d do speaking, and wherever I would go people would always like line up at the end to take a selfie because of the FOMO stuff. They were like, I have FOMO! Take a picture with me! I just realised, Wow, there’s a real demand for the FOMO stuff. People love engaging on FOMO. And I also started to do some research and realise that there’s like a crazy amount of clinical psychology research that’s been done on FOMO by professors and doctors and stuff that they’ve written about. And there’s been experiments. I mean, it is kind of insane. And I realised, like, actually FOMO is not a laughing matter. It’s quite serious, it has real effects. And I thought, wouldn’t it be interesting to write a book about that. And then there was another term I had invented called FOBO, that I wrote about in that same article that isn’t as famous, it’s been written about in the New York Times some, but it’s not, you know, in the dictionary or anything. And I thought there’s an, you know, is there enough to do a book here, and I concurred that there was, and so I’ve done the book, I have a podcast called FOMO Sapiens. I am working on a, this is super, I don’t even know how to talk about this yet. But I’ve been working on a television concept that we shall see your, your lovely wife has been my advisor, because that she’s an agent, so she, you know, she gets it. And, and I do a lot of speaking on the topic I do a lot of writing. I’ve been, it’s an awesome way for me to talk about things because there’s FOMO, everywhere. So like, during the pandemic, I wrote some op eds about how vaccine FOMO was going to help get people to get the shot, stuff like that. So it’s just a lens for me to talk about anything I really want to. And then obviously, the other cool thing is, people are just really nice to the guy who created FOMO. Like nobody ever is, like, don’t tell me the story about how you created FOMO now, they’re always want to hear it. So I’ve met some amazing people that I would have never met as a result.

Gary Crotaz 41:44
It’s really interesting now because with with, depending on whether you call it the Great Resignation, or the Great Reset, you know, lots of people through the pandemic and after, you know as we’re starting to emerge from it as a really reevaluating their lives. And there’s so many people, you know, quitting their jobs or thinking about quitting their jobs, thinking about setting up on their own. A lot of people coming into things like life coaching and executive coaching, you know, maybe building a speaking career, maybe writing that book they’ve been thinking about for a long time, maybe launching a podcast. So, and you’ve, you’ve done all of these things. What’s, what’s one piece of advice you’d give people about building their business, given your own experience of building that platform so successfully over the last few years.

Patrick McGinnis 42:26
So the thing you got to do, I didn’t always do this, but I do it now! You must validate that there is demand for your service before you decide to go all in on it. Let me give you a great example. I’ll give you an example of a failure and then success. I’ll do the failure first. I have a team that I work with. And that helps me do everything. And we were talking about Okay, how can we create new revenue streams and 2022. And one of the people on the team was very keen to do a Patreon. And we had done, we did, we’d convened focus groups actually, to work on our overall branding and messaging, which was really interesting and valuable. And we had customer profiles, and we did all this analysis. But the Patreon analysis was, was not very deep. We sort of were like, well, let’s launch it, we’ll figure it out. And we’ll come up with a thing. And it did horribly. I mean, it was like an unmitigated disaster, like just totally bad. Now, I laugh about that, because, you know, I always say like, well, you know, no matter how bad things go, it won’t be as bad as our Patreon effort. Even my mom was like, What is this? And there’s reasons why that we figured out it didn’t work, that I won’t get into. But I then contrast what I’m doing. Now I’m creating merchandise. So we’re doing a line of merchandise for the podcast and stuff like that. And we are doing it, I’m launching it with a third party partner that does print on demand, we’re trying nine SKUs, we’re putting them out there. And we’re gonna see if there’s demand, we, there was no investment to do it except for a couple $100 for web development. And so that’s a low risk way of validating that people want this stuff before we ever consider doing anything else. So that’s what that’s the kind of stuff you got to do. So many people try to write a book. Like they’re doing it from their home, they’ve never written an article on the topic that they’re exploring, they have no idea if people you know, they’re like, it’s like, why should I listen to you? That kind of stuff. And so, don’t put all your time and energy into something without validating that there’s a market for it.

Gary Crotaz 44:27
That’s really good advice. And I know you’ve you’ve had the ups and the downs. And that’s coming through within, in what you’re saying, Patrick, it’s it’s been it’s been fantastic hearing your story and the journey that you’ve been on, where can people find out more about you?

Patrick McGinnis 44:44
So don’t go to my Patreon, because we took it down. Go to, you can go to PatrickMcGinnis.com There you will find links to all my socials. And you can also go to FOMOSapiens.com, which is where we Have our podcasts. And we also have the merch that I just mentioned. So if you want a big hat that says FOMO, which I’ve been wearing mine around New York City, and frankly, I just love it – you can find them. They’re high quality at a reasonable price!

Gary Crotaz 45:15
You sell it so well, The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead for Patrick, realising that the so called safe option of a career in a big finance institution wasn’t so safe after all, he had a life changing trip to India, found fresh perspective, backed himself and struck out on an exciting portfolio career that has taken him around the world to share his ideas with millions. I can’t wait to see what he goes on to do in the coming years. Patrick, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment.

Patrick McGinnis 45:47
Thanks so much.

Gary Crotaz 45:50
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m meeting a psychiatrist and coach, Dr. Gauri Seth, who liked me trained at medical school in Bristol here in the UK. We’ll be hearing all about her journey in psychiatry and family therapy, her Unlock Moment when she decided to leave the medical profession and the coaching work she’s now doing with families using the method she developed called Brain-Based Connection. Gauri is a mother of three children, an executive, parent and emotional intelligence coach, and a psychiatrist with an extensive clinical and academic background in medicine, psychiatry and psychotherapy. She is widely published in academic journals and on a variety of health topics, including research on the benefits of meditation, on psychological wellbeing amongst Buddhist monks and nuns. Her research on family therapy has been disseminated by the World Health Organisation. Gauri founded Brain-Based Connection in 2021, as a coaching programme to support other parents with emotional connection with their children. Gauri is now on a mission to support parents with holistic science for their own well being, as well as that of their children. She is a member of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and is appointed as an expert in parent and family wellness at several private clinics. Having left a vocational career in medicine myself, I’m fascinated to learn from others who have done the same. So let’s get into it. Gauri, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Dr Gauri Seth 2:30
Thank you so much, Gary. It’s really a pleasure to be here.

Gary Crotaz 2:34
So tell me a little bit about when you first decided that you wanted to become a doctor? How old were you at that time?

Dr Gauri Seth 2:40
Yeah, that is such an interesting question. And I don’t think I’ve answered that before. I’ve always wanted to be a doctor, I think from the age of probably four. I mean, I remember vividly, you know, being drawn to books, books where there were, you know, anatomy books, you know, child-friendly anatomy books, my father is a doctor, he’s a retired psychiatrist. And I think I’ve always really idolised my father. And I think literally, you know, and I think also at school, I’ve always been drawn to biology and science, and people. So medicine was, has always been within me as something that I wanted to do. And I feel really fortunate and grateful that I was able to pursue that, that dream.

Gary Crotaz 3:27
And it was about the people side of medicine, or was about the science or something else?

Dr Gauri Seth 3:32
I think earlier, earlier, it was probably the science, I absolutely loved science. And I think it’s such a lovely way of applying knowledge, you know, you’re not, you know you’ve got the knowledge, and then you’re applying it in a way that can, that is interesting, it’s exciting. You’re constantly learning. And of course, at the other end, you’re also helping somebody else and you’re helping potentially enhance someone else’s quality of life. So for me, it’s a, it’s a wonderful blend. It also, it gives you a sort of sense of purpose and a strong sense of fulfilment. There’s never a dull moment, I think, and, you know, continuously developing professionally means that you’re always learning more. And I think there’s a part within us that wants to continue and continue to grow. So all of those aspects, I think, you know, medicine really serves very, very well. Obviously, I didn’t know that at the age of four. From childhood onwards, it was about getting the grades, studying, you know, doing all the things it takes to get into medical school. And that isn’t just the academic side that’s, you know, Duke of Edinburgh, speech and drama, piano and all those things. But I think medicine really, it’s nice in the sense that it requires a very sort of holistic, rounded skillset. It’s not just the sort of knowledge and theory as I’m sure you know.

Gary Crotaz 4:49
So you’ve spent your whole life. Wanting to be a doctor all the way through school from, from, from almost before you can remember and and as you say your father, your father was a doctor. Do you remember walking into medical school on day one? And because, was, was it what you expected it to be? Or was it different from what you expected? Because you’d been imagining that for a long, long time.

Dr Gauri Seth 5:14
Yeah, so walking into medical school, I mean, I went to Bristol Medical School like yourself. And it just felt so exciting and just such an enormous privilege, you know, and it is an enormous privilege, obviously, you know, every year there’s exams, so you end up revising for all of your holidays. But that is all I knew. That is actually all I knew. As far as I’m concerned. I’ve had my nose in a book from the age of about 11. So, and it is difficult, there’s no question that it takes an awful lot of resilience and patience. You know, there’s a lot of waiting in terms of you know, it’s a five year degree. I also did an extra year, I did an intercalated BSc in bioethics, which is medical law, ethics and philosophy, which I absolutely loved. But that was a lot of essays, a lot of you know, I think it was a 20, 15,000 word dissertation. And it was hard work for sure. There was a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of cortisol, I’d say throughout that journey. And I look back fondly, you know, it wasn’t easy, but I don’t think many things are easy. And in terms of how I look at myself, now, I think medicine kind of forces you to go beyond your comfort zone so much, that you can’t help but grow, you know, you cannot help but sort of have these constant moments of transformation. And, you know, one can only be so grateful for those. It doesn’t mean it was always easy.

Gary Crotaz 6:43
I remember very recently I learned a fact about medical training which I wasn’t aware of before, but I remember this sense at medical school of there was always new words that I didn’t know what they meant. And so I tried to find out recently, how many new words you learn when you’re at medical school? And the answer is 15,000, which is 10 a day for the entire five year medical training. So do you remember that that sense of just never quite feeling like you knew enough?

Dr Gauri Seth 7:15
Absolutely. And especially the early years, the preclinical years, which are so kind of theory-heavy biochemistry-heavy anatomy-heavy, wow, it’s literally learning another language. And it’s hard work, you know, it takes a lot of grit and a lot of time. And yet, I kind of assume that medical school attracts people who want to do that, they want to, it’s almost like a chronic being in the gym all the time, but for your brain. And there must be something in that, you know, people that don’t mind that because, you know, when I’ve only recently just sat my last ever membership exam a few months ago, involved, involving a lot of revision again, a lot of learning, but also that was a more sort of practical exam. So really applying the knowledge in an empathic way for, for, for that exam, and you know, people are like, you’re 37 and you’re still doing an exam. And I’m like, I know, and how, you know, for me, I love, I love it. I think it’s such an interesting, you know, it’s, you know, psychiatry especially, such an interesting area within medicine. And personally, I feel it’s been a privilege because you learn so much, which you can apply directly to your own relationships, your own decisions, your own life. So I wouldn’t shy away from something like medicine because of the hard work. I think it’s not for everybody. But I think the work in itself, you know, depends how one looks at work. But I think, you know, the hard work is everywhere. I think junior doctor years is very difficult. And for me personally, I mean, I had three children throughout my junior doctor years, okay, so I had, you know, maternity leaves, and I went part time, and there was sleep deprivation, you know, there’s so much uncertainty when you have children who are unwell at the wrong time. And I think for me, that’s what I found very difficult. And I actually found it actually impossible for me to continue to be the parent I wanted to be. That was true to my authentic self amidst training. But for me, I, you know, I’ve pressed pause to clinical medicine with a view that one day when my children are older, when they’re going to be less interested in me, I can go back, but for now, it was, it simply wasn’t possible for me to kind of continue. And for me, you know, when I left medicine, it was actually a decision that was very much, it wasn’t really a decision, it was almost like there was no option because when it came to childcare, we had a lot of support from grandparents, and when they no longer could safely do that because of the pandemic. You know, I had a breastfeeding baby at the time. So we made a joint decision as a family, you know, me and my husband that I was going to press pause, get the children to school years and then revisit. So interestingly, my, my sort of stepping into coaching was actually later, the decision actually, which was a very difficult decision, was to leave medicine. And I just want to say that was one of the hardest decisions I’ve ever made.

Gary Crotaz 10:20
Why? Why was it so hard?

Dr Gauri Seth 10:22
Because I love psychiatry, I enjoyed my job. I absolutely loved working in clinical psychiatry. And obviously, I also love being a parent. And, but both are hard in different ways. And I enjoyed that blend, because I kind of think work is so powerful for mental wellbeing, you know, work is, it’s not just work, it’s also our, how we can kind of reflect our sense of purpose. And when suddenly, you realise that it’s not going to be very easy to do that without an enormous hit for other people in your family, it’s very, very difficult, you’re conflicted. And you know, you can’t just turn that bit of your psychology off, the bit that wants to be a doctor and learn all the time. So that was one of the reasons that it was very difficult. And it felt like a grief reaction, actually, I felt like it was a loss.

Gary Crotaz 11:15
How long had you been, had you been practising at that point?

Dr Gauri Seth 11:19
So on and off with, with, you know, part time and maternity leaves, I think it had been 10, around about 10 years, so a decade. And you know, medicine really is a different world, I feel it’s a culture within itself. And, you know, medics understand medics.

Gary Crotaz 11:34
And do you feel, I mean, you know, you’re an expert in working with other people’s minds and their mental health. And now, you know, you’re going through a journey that that is your own sort of emotional journey and your own sort of wellness journey, actually. So did it, did it feel like you’re turning your focus on yourself at that point?

Dr Gauri Seth 11:55
Really good question. And the answer is No, it felt that I was turning my focus to my, to my children and my husband. And that part of myself that wants to be a connected, consciously-connected parent, you know I strongly believe there are different parts of ourselves and at different points in one’s life, one has the opportunity to express that and tune into it. But it doesn’t mean any part turns off. So when I was at work, I used to really struggle, I’d be thinking of my children all the time, and you know, are their emotional needs being met? When I was, you know, when you’re not at work, you feel guilty that way. So it was actually, did I feel I was tending towards myself, I suppose to some degree, the part of me that wanted to be the best mother and wife I could be, yes. But it’s not that, you know, being… I’ll be really honest, for me being a parent is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. And I found, the times when I was at home with the children, for me was the hardest time, because you never stop, you know, as a parent, you literally never stop, you can barely go to the toilet when the baby is very young. It’s literally very, very difficult to meet your needs. But I think the way I look at it is it’s a very finite period, when you have to adjust your life as a parent, and I’m lucky that I, we were able to make that decision as a family and that my husband and me were very aligned on that decision that look, you know, children really only, you know, that period of time where their brains are developing, and their self esteem is being nurtured, is actually not that long a period of time. And I can continue to be a doctor later on.

Gary Crotaz 13:34
I think I hear two sort of streams of thought there – one is a practical one, which is How do I take all of these things and fit them into 168 hours a week in a very practical, pragmatic way. And then there’s something else that I think I’m hearing, which is about identity, you know, identity as a parent, identity as a doctor. And as you’re saying, it’s not that you switch one off and you switch one on, but it’s the kind of waxing and waning of levels of how each of those define you, or how each of those are sort of most prominent in your mind. So when you think of your identity, how does that play to this balance of wife, mother, and doctor and all these other things? How does that play for you?

Dr Gauri Seth 14:22
All facets of those things are very, very important to me. And the way I look at it is, it’s about timing. So, you know, before having children, the mother bit of me, there was no, that was not being activated at all. And it was all about being, you know, a doctor or being a friend or being a daughter, and then being a wife. I think, I think part of the problem when you make a huge transition is how you navigate those facets of your identity. And what you do with that difficult emotion because I had a lot of, I felt very anxious actually during that process of making that decision. You know, what will people think of me? What will people think that I’m doing with all the training I’ve had? You know, there were so many difficult things. And I think what I’ll say is, the best thing one can do is have a sort of non-judgmental approach to these difficult aspects, okay, and trying to really look inwards and understand which aspect of one’s identity, because that is, that can be fluid, external factors change. And it’s about aligning aspects of yourself with the right situation at the right time, but being mindful that that other bit of you doesn’t go anywhere, you can tap back into that. And it’s a constant blend of optimising all those different things, but being, not being too hard on yourself, and realising that actually, you may not make the perfect decision. And I think that’s been really helpful, not striving for the perfect decision, because there is never going to be a perfect outcome. It might be that, you know, I may not be, you know, there’s so many things that, you know, I’ll press pause to my clinical work now. But it, does it matter if I’m going to be a lot older when I become a consultant, you know, who does that matter to? So I think it’s about having a non-judgmental perspective and going with the flow, but trying to remain true to your values. And for me, you know, being the mother that I want to be is really important, because the way I look at it is – my children’s sort of self esteem, their sense of self, their future wellbeing, I can have an enormous impact on that for them. And they’ve only got one mum, and that’s me. So that’s how I’ve sort of navigated those difficult, difficult decisions.

Gary Crotaz 16:42
It’s really powerful. And we’re here to talk about this concept of an Unlock Moment, which is a flash of clarity, a real moment of clarity. So when, so when you’re on this journey of transition from the world as it was before, you know, and you’re in your clinical practice, and then you came to this realisation that you had to do something differently, and to press pause. What was the moment when you found clarity – Now I understand what I have to do. Do you remember that, that moment of time?

Dr Gauri Seth 17:14
I do remember that. And it was literally the pandemic. If the pandemic hadn’t impacted my childcare the way it did, I suspect I might, you know, in fact, I definitely would have carried on. It was a decision that wasn’t really mine. It was an external, the circumstances was such that there was literally no choice. It’s according to my values and my sense of sort of purpose and my vision. There was, there was no question that I was going to be taking a pause.

Gary Crotaz 17:45
And you describe that as a practical thing, you know, because you couldn’t get childcare therefore you needed to play that role yourself?

Dr Gauri Seth 17:52
Well, yes, it was I couldn’t arrange the childcare that I wanted for our children. Therefore, it was a logistics thing, it was a practicalities thing.

Gary Crotaz 18:03
And I don’t know whether this is an answerable question, but what did that tell you about you? That that’s the decision that you made, beyond the practicalities?

Dr Gauri Seth 18:14
I think it tells me that, as with probably a lot of doctors in training that you go through, you’ve got to go through the hoops, and you’re not probably that conscious of where you are in that journey and how it relates to the other aspects of your life. So it took something very, very real and practical for me to sort of step off. So what does that say about me? Probably that I, I go with the flow. And however, it also tells me just how powerful my vision is, as a parent, really, it kind of tells me that it really took the sort of, how I want my early years for my children to look like, it took that for me to, to leave medicine. And it was not an easy decision. It was actually very, very difficult.

Gary Crotaz 19:01
I’ve been talking to a few people recently about this idea that I’m sure at some point I should turn into a little article somewhere, about hamster wheels versus playground roundabouts. And hamster wheels are a thing that you, that you feel yourself running on. But you can choose to stop running. So it’s within your gift. And playground roundabouts, you know the little ones that spin round and round and round and you’re stuck in the middle of it. I always feel a little bit like you need somebody else’s help to slow that down. And I think that my, my, my read of your story there is actually that’s more like the playground roundabout that it was the pandemic and circumstances making you go – I have a practical problem that I must now resolve. That’s effectively something external slowing down that playground roundabout for you so that you can step off, as opposed to you independently choosing to slow down and step off and see a new perspective. Does that resonate as a slightly weird metaphor?

Dr Gauri Seth 20:02
No, I think that’s absolutely right. That is exactly right. I suspect if the pandemic hadn’t happened, I would have carried on, I would have got to the end, you know, I would have got to consultant. And at that point, I would have had an opportunity to stop, step off that wheel and regroup. But I think, you know, training isn’t easy, there’s not a lot of, you know, it’s, it’s physically exhausting. It’s emotionally exhausting, there’s exams, you know, junior doctor years are very difficult. So, and then if you’ve got children, and you know, sleep deprivation mixed into all of that, you know, there is very little conscious reflection of, of, you know, where are we going? I think you just have to get there, and then one can review. But for me, I actually stepped off before that. But yeah, I think that’s a fair analogy.

Gary Crotaz 20:49
And are you grateful that that happened, that it enabled you to stop?

Dr Gauri Seth 20:54
I am really grateful that I’m able to be present, physically more present with my children, I’m able to be there, pick them up, drop them off, connect with them, talk to them, laugh with them, help them nurture their growing sense of self, which is, which is all I want. And, you know, it was a very… there was probably about a six month period after leaving, where it felt very, very difficult. And I felt that loss, but it didn’t take long before I discovered that actually there is a way I can use my skills to do something meaningful. And that’s through the world of coaching. And actually, I didn’t know that coaching existed. And I’m just so grateful that I discovered it. And actually, I think psychiatry, psychotherapy, these, all these sort of disciplines lend themselves so well, and medicine, to coaching, that I just feel like the luckiest girl in the world, because I’m able to, you know, there’s a really lovely kind of phrase Both And not Either Or, okay, so one can have a fulfilling, professional sort of sense that they are using their skills, using their brain, contributing to the lives of others, you can do that and support your authentic self and support your family, you can do Both And and before I wasn’t able to it was actually an Either Or, and had to bring in other family members to support the family system. But what I realised and I’m really grateful and quite proud of is that through the business that I’ve set up, I’m able to sort of have that satisfaction that I am working, and I am supporting other people, and I’m able to be there for my own children.

Gary Crotaz 22:38
And do you feel that you’ve had to find a new mission or purpose in this new role? Or do you feel actually, it fulfils the same mission and purpose that you had, as a psychiatrist, as a doctor?

Dr Gauri Seth 22:52
I feel what’s happened with this. And it’s happened sort of organically, that the skills that I have, and the knowledge, you know, the educational background, whatever, all the things that I can offer, which I was offering through medicine, you know, I have basically repackaged all of those into another remit, which allows me to be flexible, but offer a similar sort of offering. The main difference, I think, with coaching is that the emphasis is different. The emphasis is on prevention. So it’s still about wellbeing, it’s still about wellness, but actually it’s about prevention rather than cure, okay, so when you’re working in clinical medicine, there is a problem, there’s a pathology and you’re trying to support it, you’re trying to fix the problem. And what the coaching is allowing me to do is sometimes before there is even a problem, you know, I work with parents where there may not be a problem, but what they want to do is understand how do they prevent problems in the, in the connection, in the behaviours, in the emotional wellbeing of their children. So the the skills are the same, the vision is similar, which is to support people. But it’s the, the tilt is more towards prevention, and I feel so delighted to be in that space. It’s so enjoyable, so satisfying. And it’s a real privilege, as I’m sure you would agree.

Gary Crotaz 24:13
So tell us a little bit about Brain-Based Connection, where it came from and what it is that you’ve developed?

Dr Gauri Seth 24:20
Yes, sure. So Brain-Based Connection is a methodology, which focuses on connection. So the focus of my coaching is to support people, not just parents, but to support people to think about connection. Connection is a very powerful concept. And I think, unless you bring conscious awareness to the connection between you and somebody else, you can bumble through life and not necessarily leverage on all the benefits of a better connection, okay? Now, when I talk about parent-child connection, I’m talking about, you know, what does it take for the child to feel that you are an attuned caregiver? And it’s not actually just parents, it’s caregivers, you know, it could be au pairs, nannies, teachers, keyworkers. You know, so it’s about trying to understand what does it take for your child to feel that attunement from their caregiver. And that will be different for every child, depending on their age, depending on so many different factors. But what Brain-Based Connection is about, is about bringing sort of science, you know, concepts from neuroscience, some from psychotherapy, from family therapy, from cognitive behavioural therapy, and family therapy, as well as schema therapy. So I’m turning to lots of sort of different evidence-based disciplines, and packaging that together into a method, which any parent could understand, they don’t have to have a science background, they don’t have to have a psychotherapy background, you know, this is about translational wellbeing. So I believe there’s an enormous gap, which I’m trying to bridge. And and this is basically based from my clinical practice as a psychiatrist, and as a psychotherapist, that there are so many transformative kind of nuggets of science swirling around, which need to land into family units. You know, if you understand what it takes to sort of connect with somebody to regulate the emotional state with them, if you understand what it takes for children to have a good self esteem, have a good sort of sense of self, to know that they are loved for who they are, no matter what, these key concepts, which are fairly simple, they’re not very complex, and yet they can be transformative to a growing mind. And so that’s what Brain-Based Connection is about. It’s about bringing that science to parents, but through a coaching format. And by that I mean, you know, I believe strongly that we are in a multicultural world. And that also, you know, within a family, within the same culture, every family has their own culture. And it’s about trying to understand the universals. And I believe connection is a universal. All humans need to connect. And it’s about helping a family or parents apply connection to their circumstances. So whether that’s, you know, I’m a working parent and I want to be more connected to my children. Okay, so then we’ll take that scenario, and support connection to make sure that the parents making the most of that time together, so that children are kind of feeling that connection.

Gary Crotaz 27:43
Why is this important to you? Why is it that this is the thing that you’ve chosen to do?

Dr Gauri Seth 27:49
I think I thank my experience working in psychiatry and psychotherapy, because I think it’s very clear when you go deep into anybody’s sort of history, just how important those early relational experiences can be. And I think it’s kind of, it’s a bit of an irony that those you know, there’s a what, there’s a kind of concept that the first seven years of life form the patterns which you then feel familiar with, which you will then probably be attracted to repeating in the future. And I heard that once in a psychotherapy supervision session. And I just remember thinking, you know, so basically, the first seven years of life are really important. And yet, as a parent myself, I know that it’s a very demanding time for parents, it’s very, very difficult. So the reason I set this up, is to sort of almost turn towards that irony that this is such an important time in a child’s life. And yet parenting is so difficult. So how can we support parents? How can we help parents, and I’m really keen to ensure that this message is in a very non-judgmental way that, look, parenting is tough. And what will it take for parents to feel that they can remain connected to themselves and their children? And self-care for parents is a big passion of mine. And the reason I say that is, I know that parents, you know, they’ll give their all to their children, to their work. And, you know, they are the last, the last that they’re going to turn towards to supporting and the message really is, you know, you can’t, you can’t give from an empty cup. And how can we help parents during a very self-sacrificing stage of life, to turn towards themselves, to top themselves up and to understand what does it take for them to feel self-care? You know, self-care is different for everybody. And it took me years to understand what that what it even means. I mean, you know, not everybody likes yoga. I mean, I do and there’s a lot of evidence supporting meditation and yoga, and those are all really positive. Some parents may not resonate with those things. So it’s, it’s very much an exploratory question, an individual question for parents to turn in and understand what does it take for them to reconnect with their authentic self, to restore, to re-energise so that they can be that attuned caregiver to their children?

Gary Crotaz 30:18
Self-care for the parent is really important. And you talked about your own journey and your own experience, and when you close your eyes, what’s, what are you visualising in that moment when you think about self-care for the parent is, is important, what’s, what’s the story, or what’s the moment in your own experience that comes to mind at that point? What triggers that?

Dr Gauri Seth 30:42
I think I always thought that it’s about, you know, ring-fencing 30 minutes of time to do an activity or do something. But I remember having a moment when all I’ve done is I’ve gone for coffee with a friend, I’d gone on the train, and I came back and I felt completely restored. Just having that time to myself without a sort of, a child tugging at me. And I realised that actually self-care can be anything. It doesn’t, it doesn’t have to be what other people think is self-care, it could even be listening to a song. So I find listening to a really good song restores me. It could be looking at a good view. So I think, you know, it’s a very personal question. And I would, I would really guide and advise everyone to make that personal judgement call for themselves. It’s not about looking at what other people are doing. It’s not about necessarily, you know, and it may even be the least expensive things that can restore you the most.

Gary Crotaz 31:39
It’s interesting that story of, in your case, it’s not necessarily a big thing. And it’s not an expensive thing, it’s not necessarily a long thing, but it’s a moment that you need to find. And when you think back to your own, you know, early parenting experience, how easy was it to forget to do that?

Dr Gauri Seth 31:58
Oh, I would say it was impossible. My early parenting moments were a haze, a fog of just, I was not connected to myself at all. And that might be why I am passionate, so passionate about helping parents connect with themselves. Because I think physiologically, it’s a very, very unique time, especially if you have kind of, you know, given birth to the baby, I mean, your whole body, the hormones, the sleep deprivation. And I think it took me probably three years after the birth of each child where I felt I was back to my authentic free self. Because there are a lot of modifiable factors in the parenting journey, which pass. And I think when I look back at my, you know, when I had my first baby, I don’t think I realised how transient that those modifiable factors were. You kind of think, oh my gosh, this is my life now, this is how it’s going to be. But actually, in hindsight I kind of wish I’d realised that look, this is a section of my life, it is going to get better. And just be super-kind to yourself, super-patient and get as much support as you can. And try and be as non-judgmental towards yourself as you can.

Gary Crotaz 33:20
And when you’re in a conversation with somebody, and, and your voice is around, Look after yourself more, find moments for yourself, find that self-care. And they’re laughing and saying, haha, I just don’t have the time! It’s just impossible. And you resonate with that, too, because you’ve been there too. What’s something that you say that helps get somebody from a place of, But it’s just impossible, to a place of, Maybe, maybe I can?

Dr Gauri Seth 33:52
I think if somebody was sort of saying that to me, I can imagine saying that to somebody, okay. And what I want deep down in that moment is for someone to say, look, I hear you, I want to know that my experience is validated, right? So if someone said to me, Look I get it, you’re so tired, there is no time, your baby needs you all the time. I get it. It’s really hard. That’s probably the first step in me then thinking actually, maybe there is a way. Whereas if someone just keeps, if you don’t have that authentic validation that your experience is real, then you just end up trying to defend yourself to say, look no I am too busy. Hear me! You have no idea, it’s too difficult! But if you come from, if you synergize from perspectives and you feel heard, then you might then… because I think it does come from us. If we don’t see that potential, it’s going to be very difficult to take that time. So it’s, whatever it takes for that parent to, to believe for themselves just how important it is. Because what we’re understanding from sort of science is that in order to support a child to regulate their emotional state, what they need is a connected caregiver to co-regulate, okay. And co-regulation basically means helping you calm down with somebody else with you. But if that caregiver is exhausted, if that caregiver is burnt out, it’s very difficult for that co-regulation process to happen. So it could be that parents need to understand the science, that look, if you don’t ringfence time for yourself, it’s going to be a lot harder for you to stay connected and co-regulate with your children who actually don’t have a choice because, you know, their brains are developing, and the part of their brain they need to regulate their emotional state hasn’t developed yet.

Gary Crotaz 35:45
I love hearing your authentic experience of having been there yourself. And it’s very easy, I talk a lot about self-help guidance that is along the lines of, if you were only to eat the breakfast that eat, then you will be, become supremely successful. And of course, life is not that simple. Because if it was then we’d all be supremely successful, all eating whichever breakfast it is! But actually, it’s different for everybody, circumstances are different for everybody. And I like when you’re saying that you need to think about what’s right for you, but there are certain parameters or ways to think about it to help you find that journey. And I know from working in the mother and baby sector myself, I don’t have children, but I’ve worked in the mother and baby retail sector and first time parents coming into the store was a very, very different journey from second and third time parents because it’s all so new, and they feel so alone and single parents in particular, or new parents who don’t, you know, whose own parents are not around anymore? It can be an incredibly lonely time. So for people who don’t have an easy and obvious connected family network, supportive network of friends around them, what would you say to them in terms of something that they can do to help look after themselves, to enable them to look after a little one as well?

Dr Gauri Seth 37:06
Yeah, I think it’s really hard, and I agree, I think, you know, the importance of a tribe is huge. And I think if one doesn’t have that tribe, you don’t have family, extended family, or a hands-on co-parent, it’s really hard. And you know, what would I say? I think part of it is distress tolerance. It’s a concept I speak to my children about all the time, that we have to get good at tolerating moments that are difficult, and remembering that they do pass. So sleep deprivation is the biggest, biggest thing that I struggled with, and what can you do with that, you, no one can say anything to me, you’re tired, you’re sleep-deprived, you’re going to carry on, you’re going to keep being a parent. So what I would say is, hold in mind that that time will pass and hold in mind that you just have to think about the next best thing you can do. I would say drop, sort of, high standards, drop perfectionism, drop having unrelenting standards, because that bar that we sometimes have for ourselves in our own head, is actually in our own head. And actually, it’s much more powerful to try and to look inwards and think, look, you know, have I got the important things sorted? And if I have, you’re doing really, really well. And just, you know, I think I do strongly feel that parenting is very, very, very, very hard. And just not, you know, as I say, not having that high bar, just kind of, and also, I think what I would like to see is a much lower threshold for people getting support. I think there is still a bit of a stigma around getting, you know, support for one’s emotional wellbeing, whether it’s through seeing a therapist, or a coach, or going to the GP. I think we need to be, you know, we are seeing this shift, which I’m delighted about. And I would encourage that shift to continue. We should have a much lower threshold of getting help. Because what I find, you know, having worked as a therapist is often people come when they’ve experienced so much suffering. And actually that could have been avoidable if we, if we ask for that help earlier. And earlier, you know, support earlier is better. And what I love about coaching is that you don’t even have to have a significant problem. It could just be, Look, I’m not quite sure how this is working out and I want some support. I need a coach to help me figure that out. And I’m loving the sort of rise in digital products to help make that all more accessible because I remember myself when I had two under two, and I needed some support. And it’s just so difficult to kind of take your children to a therapist. It’s very, very hard when you’re physically exhausted, and I think I’d like to see that support being a bit more accessible to parents, and I think that’s where digital technology could be really powerful.

Gary Crotaz 40:07
That’s really, it’s such an important message and you’ve articulated it so beautifully, so thank you for that. So we’re in, a quarter of the way through 2022. What’s coming up for you in the rest of this year, in your business and in your work?

Dr Gauri Seth 40:22
Yeah, so I’m continuing to sort of offer the Connection coaching to parents, individually, as couples or in groups. I’ve also written a book, which I’m looking at now sort of working up for publication. And that’s going to basically be a book full of my sort of strategies, my practical tips on how to remain connected to oneself and to children. So watch this space for that. And then in terms of, as I mentioned, making that science more accessible, I’m also recording courses, which will be accessible to lots of parents so they could potentially watch it while they’re cooking. You know, you could, you could have it on in the background. And I’m also working on a digital product as well, which is about helping bring that sort of conscious connection to parents so that everyday life can be sort of, can be boosted in terms of their emotional wellbeing through that product.

Gary Crotaz 41:23
Amazing. And where can people find out more about you?

Dr Gauri Seth 41:26
So yes, I have a website, BrainBasedConnection.co.uk. I’m also on Facebook and Instagram.

Gary Crotaz 41:34
Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Dr Gauri Seth, after a highly successful career as a psychiatrist and academic, it was finding a new outlet for her skills and experience through coaching and supporting families, becoming an entrepreneur gave her new challenges but also the opportunity to find a new balance with family life. Gauri is a great example of a person who refuses to be constrained by convention. And it’s very exciting to watch her grow her Brain-Based Connection practice, make a difference to families in a new way. Gauri, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment.

Dr Gauri Seth 42:14
Thank you for having me, Gary.

Gary Crotaz 42:16
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

DISCLAIMER: Any information or advice Dr Gauri Seth gives is purely based on her own experience. Comments made are as a coach – this is not medical or psychiatry advice. There is no guarantee as there are many variables that will impact outcomes. Everything stated should be taken as opinion. 

Gary Crotaz 0:00
Do you remember when it became public that you were going on Strictly, how people responded to it?

Russell Grant 0:11
Well, the papers, one in particular, and ironically a paper I now write the stars for, the Sunday Mirror, I wasn’t writing for them then, but I had one of those terrible quotes, which was An insider said, that Russell Grant will be too fat to get round the ballroom and I thought, Well, you ain’t seen me lately! And in fact, the person who was upset far, far, far more than me, I’ve been through it all before, was my mum, my dear mum. Oh, fancy them saying that! I said, mum, proof of the pudding. Wait till I get on there!

Gary Crotaz 0:49
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, dear listener, and welcome to a very special episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today we’re talking with someone whose destiny was truly written in the stars! TV personality, astrologer, actor, and dance extraordinaire, the wonderful Russell Grant wowed us all with his moves on Strictly Come Dancing in 2011 and has been living his best life ever since. He calls it Finding My Bliss. Russell’s first appearance on the BBC was at the tender age of 10. And he featured in classic series on London Weekend Television, including On The Buses and Please Sir! A career in theatre followed with roles in Tom Brown’s Schooldays in the West End, and with Tommy Steele in Hans Andersen at the Palladium. Russell was a staple of Breakfast TV from the early 1980s as the resident astrologer, as celebrated for his famous knitted jumpers as for his zodiac skills. Astrology remains a huge part of his life and millions of people, including one or two members of the Royal Family, have all benefited from his work. In 2011, Russell was invited to join Strictly Come Dancing, and went on to partner both Flavia Cacace and Joanne Clifton. I’m sure we’ll hear all about his experience of being fired out of a cannon, regularly featured as an all-time memorable moment in the history of Strictly. After Strictly he took over from Michael Crawford starring as The Wizard of Oz for Andrew Lloyd Webber at the Palladium. Russell retains his love for theatre, and regularly brings a little Russell glamour to the community in Wales, including playing the iconic role of Edna Turnblad in Hairspray at the Welsh Millennium Centre, Cardiff. Outside of the arts, Russell is passionate about supporting dementia research and care and is an ambassador for Alzheimer’s Research and a patron of Dementia UK. Russell, yours is a life very well lived and I can’t wait to hear more about your relationship with fame and this idea of finding your bliss. It is my absolute pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Russell Grant 3:43
Thank you Gary and the nostalgia came pouring in every time you mentioned something! I found myself nodding 200 miles away from where you are and I was just remembering everything. And all the… all the favourable times in my life, how how lucky I’ve been!

Gary Crotaz 4:06
So I wonder whether we should start this conversation with talking a little bit about where you were in life before that call for Strictly came in back in 2011. I know we were talking before about an interview you were doing with Stephen Nolan. So tell me a bit about where you were at that point in your life and your career.

Russell Grant 4:24
At that point in my life, which was, I can give you a specific date – it was June the 24th 2011. And for two years, I’d actually begun to find my bliss again because in 2008, 2009 actually, the very beginning, I was seriously overweight, I was nearly 30 stone in weight. I’d been to Berlin to do the Christmas market but found I couldn’t walk more than 10 yards without having to sit down. I took control of myself and my life in the early days of 2009, and I asked myself a simple question – what is it that you’re lacking in your life that makes you eat, because eat and food, and for some people drink, and other people smoking, is all a crutch to help you get through sadness of some kind. And I realised I was missing theatre. And theatre had been my life for so long, practically all of my life, and acting – you said it, from the age of 10. And it goes back even earlier, I played the Cat in Dick Whittington at the age of five. But that had all kind of dried up because everybody wanted me for astrology. I didn’t realise that my background was performance. And so by the time I got to June the 24th 2011, just before the Strictly call, we’d had a wonderful time doing a Midsummer Night’s Dream at the fantastic, beautiful village of Portmeirion in North Wales. And I had directed it and I also played Puck. It gave me such pleasure. It unlocked so many ideas. I had Hermia as a hippie, I had Helena as a pole dancer, I had the two male leads Demetrius and Lysander, or I should call them the lovers, there’s a lot of male leads in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. But the lovers they, I sent away to Greece, and they wore Olympiakos and Panathinaikos football shirts. And I played Puck all of a glitter in even glittery, sparkly, glamorous Doc Martens! And it was a huge success, so much so that they had to add on at least another week, ten days to it. And it was all around the time when Kate married William. And of course, Midsummer Night’s Dream is all about weddings and the beautiful music of Mendelssohn, which I played religiously throughout, so that was it. I’d lost a lot of weight, which some newspapers decided I’d lost to get on Strictly, and that was so not true. The phone call came from Daisy Moore, the celebrity booker. And she said, How would you feel about going on Strictly Come Dancing? This was 4:29 on the 24th of June. And I said Oh no, I couldn’t do that. I’m too old. I’m 60. I can’t possibly do that. She said, Well, would you like to come and meet our producer? And I said, Well, I’m not sure. I’m perfectly happy in Snowdonia. And I said, Where would I have to go to and they said, oh Daisy said, Manchester. And I went to Manchester and I met Moira Ross, the big boss. And we got on like a house on fire. She pushed back the coffee table and said, Do whatever you would see as dancing. Well, I don’t do dad dancing, probably because I’m not a dad. But I did have what she called a natural samba walk. I mean, I found out all about that from Flavia when we did the samba in, in Strictly, but I had this natural samba walk and she said, How’d you feel about coming on? And I said I think I’m too old, I’ve danced in musical theatre, ‘hoofers’ they called us. So she said how would you feel about it? I said, Well I’d love the idea of doing Latin. I suddenly found myself warming to the idea and getting very enthusiastic. And she said, I’ll call you in a fortnight. But I was heading up to Preston in Lancashire and staying with family and a phone call came at five o’clock that same day. And it was Moira and she said I want to book you now because rumour tells me you’re going on I’m A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, which was never true. Not enough glamour, or sparkle, or twinkle in that for me to do and she booked me. And I found out later that the only person who had been booked before me was soon to become very close friend Robbie Savage.

Gary Crotaz 10:00
Oh really? And it’s interesting that your first reaction was that you couldn’t do it. And that you came to warm up to the idea. And what was it that that turned you from I can’t do it to Maybe I can.

Russell Grant 10:17
Music. I’ve loved music all my life, If You Could See Me Now, from Sweet Charity, now that’s a great number. But if you could see me now with all of my CDs and vinyl and everything music, it’s mainly a musical but I have a special penchant for Offenbach. And I love Orpheus in the Underworld. I’ve just been playing before I came on air with you, Gary. La Belle Hélène. I love Gilbert and Sullivan operetta, I absolutely adore. And so it was the thought of being able to invest in the music and bring out the best in me.

Gary Crotaz 11:09
So it was something very personal to you. And you remember when it became public that you were going on Strictly, how people responded to it.

Russell Grant 11:17
Well the papers, one in particular, and ironically a paper I now write the stars for, the Sunday Mirror. I wasn’t writing for them then. But I had one of those terrible quotes, which was An insider said that Russell Grant will be too fat to get round the ballroom and I thought, Well, you ain’t seen me lately. And in fact the person who was upset far, far, far more than me, I’ve been through it all before, was my mum. My dear mum, Oh, fancy them saying that. I said mum, proof of the pudding. Wait till I get on there. And I remember the very first group dance which was to the Jacksons, Can You Feel It. What a great number that was, and I just got into that rhythm and it never stopped. And Flavia said to me, when we were first partnered together, and I was a bit dubious because Flavia is so fabulous, as indeed Joanne is, I was worried that I wouldn’t be able to deal with the technical stuff. But Flavia immediately realised it wasn’t so much the technical, it was showbiz with me. And she said, And the thing that you’ve got, which so many people don’t have, is rhythm. And with rhythm, you can do anything. And indeed I did. Because I was favourite to go out in week two, no one goes out on week one. I was favourite to go out in week two, but I lasted right the way through to Wembley, which was I think about 9, 10 weeks. And then even when I went out, because by then I needed to, simply because my knee had gone, I’d torn a cartilage in trying to do the Jiveathan, week after would have been just, it wouldn’t have happened. But then I got a call from Moira Ross and she said, we’re going to do something unprecedented. We want you and Flavia to be our special guest stars at Christmas. And that’s what we did. So we were the only couple invited back for the Christmas Special.

Gary Crotaz 13:31
And do you remember that very first episode of Strictly where you walk out at the top of those famous stairs and you wave. What were you thinking? At the top of the stairs, the first moment you stepped out onto the Strictly set?

Russell Grant 13:46
I think I’ve thought, I was, I mean of course you’re nervous, I mean, but you thrive on nerves I think in showbiz, someone once said to me to me, If you’re not nervous then you’re not going to give a performance! Well you might give a performance but it might not be a good one! I remember walking down and I kind of felt … Flavia was smiling that wonderful Neapolitan smile. And I, we were clinging on to each other in a kind of way, not desperately, but we kind of knew we had a mission, something where I felt in my blood. And I’m going to show you now, I’m going to show you what I can do. And of course you have that little bit of a video bit before where they set up the dance. And of course for me I was behind this fabulous Botticelli scallop shell because the number was Venus by Bananarama and I was going to be Venus! Not Flavia, who was a natural Venus! A Venus Flavia, and Venus Russell, let’s say we were both Venus that night. Flavia was on the stairs doing some fabulous cha cha cha stuff. I mean when you look back on it, I don’t think it’s on YouTube now, I can’t seem to find it anyway. But when she got in that mood, the music that sort of strumming electric guitar full of chords, I was behind the scallop shell, then the bass comes in. And the bass brought me to life because then Flavia choreographed it so she pulled back the shell, I had my back to the audience, so we’re in for a surprise everybody! And up I came and did one of my favourite moves, it’s a kind of trademark move now for me, which is Up go the hands. And I mean, it could easily be Edna Turnblad now, or it could even be Norma Desmond in Sunset Boulevard, but up came the hands, and I was off! I remember the people clapping. I remember going round. I remember that I had to smile because it was so pent up all of this. I remember when we finished, that cheer that went up! I have never experienced anything in my life. And Bruce Forsyth, a dear, dear man who became a close friend. He said Look up there, Russell, look up there. They’re all giving you a standing ovation. And I looked up and they were! I couldn’t believe it, lump in my throat. And then Bruce said, I’ve never seen this before on an opening night. And they were stood up everywhere, all around. So I, the scene was set after that. I knew that, whatever dance I did, I had the power of performance. And the brilliant Flavia, who choreographed it so fabulously that the showbiz me shone through. Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 17:15
And it’s amazing. I mean, you know, you and I have both watched Strictly over the years and you’ve obviously been on that famous floor. And so many of the celebrities are a little bit petrified, both about being in that environment, but doing something so out of their comfort zone. And they do exactly what their professional partner has told them to do. And tell me about your pirouettes?

Russell Grant 17:44
Well, as time went on, I got a fantastic tweet. Because I hadn’t been on Twitter until we got to Strictly Come Dancing, even though I joined, I didn’t do anything, because I didn’t know what the heck I was doing. And we had a run down by the press office on how to deal with Twitter. And I watched my numbers going up. In fact, it’s the same as it was, around 50,000. It’s not grown and it’s not deteriorated. And I just knew I had an audience now and I have to do it for them. And Gary Avis, who was Master at the Royal Ballet, in Covent Garden, he sent me a tweet, and he said, you have the whole Royal Ballet behind you. What?! I quickly rang up Flav, and I said, Oh my goodness, look at this! So she went on, she went but I’ve never, no, she said This is incredible! This has never happened! Anyway, I knew by now that I was not only doing it for my wonderful supporters who supported me throughout the whole run, but also for the Royal Ballet, Covent Garden! And we did, we did two dances. One was our tango to Sweet Dreams by Annie Lennox, where I had the teddy bear in bed. And as I go back to the bed, I suddenly went into these turns, these pirouettes, three of them. I didn’t know why I was doing it. I just did it. And Flavia said to me, What was that all about? And I said, I don’t know, I just got the urge to do it. And so I pirouetted back to the bed, grabbed the teddy and then pretended to be back to sleep. And then we did our American Smooth, I Am What I Am. And as we got towards the end, I did three star jumps! And I don’t know why but I just did star jumps. In fact, when I was with Joanne, Jo, Joanne in Aladdin and the Genie we played in the Christmas Special. I had another bash at them towards Princess Jasmine, which was our lovely Nat, who is about 20 feet tall, like a totem pole there, and I’m not that height, and I did it again. It just, the spirit took me, and the spirit moved me. And it got cheers and so I just did it. But the joy of Flavia and Joanne was they didn’t care. They knew that whatever I did that I would give a performance and I would work with them. I love working as a team. I would work with them. But the minute I was away from the girls, I just suddenly just had to leap around. And so I did!

Gary Crotaz 21:01
And there’s something quite totemic, iconic, actually about that moment of spontaneity representing your sort of rediscovery of this, of this self that came through, through Strictly and it was such a moment for you in your in your career to find this sort of real you. What does that spontaneity mean for you when you look back at that time?

Russell Grant 21:27
Well, it means to me freedom and liberation because I’ve been through a very, very dark time, which stemmed from my grandmother passing. I’d been a carer for her, she had Alzheimer’s very badly, she went mute in the end. And then I lost my other grandmother who took me in when my mum and dad were divorcing and I’d lost them both. And what triggered the grieving off big time and I went into a severe depression was when I came home one Christmas, well just before Christmas actually, I’d been opening up a local fete in Blaenau Ffestiniog. And my dog died in front of me. And after that, everything kind of fell apart. And I got depressed and I ate a lot and I didn’t want to do anything, I didn’t want to be seen. I had the great Catherine Tate ring me, she wanted me to go down to London to do a sketch with her for her show. And I just couldn’t. I could not be seen and did not want to be seen. And until I had that eureka moment, I found it, which was 2009, I found the solution – get back to theatre, get back to performance and showbiz. And Portmeirion here were marvellous, they were a great vehicle for me to do that, first with Under Milkwood and then with a Midsummer Night’s Dream. And then the local theatre asked me to put on a big workshop and I did with the 60s musical called Bliss. And I played Dusty Springfield in that and had three encores of When I Said I Needed You. And I did that number three times. And then I knew I’d found my bliss. And that brings in neatly, the Stephen Nolan interviews because once people knew I was doing it, and of course by the time I’d done my first dance, and by the time I did it, I had all the papers backing me. I didn’t have one paper who wasn’t supporting me and giving me a great Huzzah, and so it was empowering. The whole thing was empowering. And it gave me what I’d been missing for a very long time, probably since 1978. 1978 was when the Queen Mother and I met at Olympia and she had an astrological consultation with me in public. The pictures are all there, which, and they went around the world. But before that, you see I’ve been acting and I’d been singing. And I was with as you said in the intro Tommy Steele in Hans Andersen at the London Palladium. I worked with Keith, lovely Keith Chegwin, Christopher Guard, Simon Le Bon at the Cambridge Theatre in the West End in Tom Brown’s Schooldays and so much more, including a Redcoat for Butlins in Ayr. But all that disappeared once people saw me as an astrologer, they wanted that.

Gary Crotaz 24:54
A fascinating part of your story and you’ve talked about, it’s coming back to your love of theatre, and not necessarily theatre in the biggest stages in a high profile way. But coming back to your love of theatre brought you out of a really dark time. But I wanted to, I wanted to understand a little bit more from you about what’s the difference between, in your relationship with fame between that time when, you know, in the early 1980s you’re on Breakfast TV and that whole career that you had? And then your relationship with fame when it was around Strictly? Because both of them were really high profile moments in your in your career.

Russell Grant 25:35
Very iconic, I mean, Breakfast Television hadn’t been on anywhere in Britain. And, and you’ve got of course all the press again. Well, not all of them. That’s deeply unkind of me. Out of fairness, there were some who saw it, this, this could change, you know, breakfast time forever, which of course it did. But there were those who said, Oh, no, it’s never going to work. People are rushing around wanting to go to school, wanting to go to work. And so therefore, the radio is the best medium. There’s, there’s no way it’s going to work. But it did. We launched in January, in 1983. I had, my first role was to interview Sir Harry Secombe, who after that became a very good friend of mine. Lovely, lovely man. And then we had a slight crisis, because the then Archbishop of Canterbury said that if the BBC had an astrology slot, it should also have a God slot. Well my great and wonderful producer, editor actually, Ron Neil said, No, I am modelling Breakfast Time for the BBC on the Daily Mirror. And there is no God slot in the Daily Mirror. And as a Christian, I could see where the Archbishop of Canterbury was coming from. This of course leaked out into the press. And I remember the next day, because I used to get about 1,000 letters a day, because there was no, there was no social media, there was no emails, there was nothing like that. People wanting to be mentioned for their birthdays, oh, so many different reasons they contacted me. They were contacting me really as a kind of astrological shrink. And the, which was fine, but I couldn’t write to 1,000 people a day. And I remember when this crisis hit the show. Tony Crabb who was the production manager who kept the show going and everything. He came to me and said, Oh, Alasdair Milne wants to see the sort of mail you’re getting. I gave him the pile of letters I’d had that day. And he said, No, I don’t want a week’s worth or a month’s worth. I said, Well, you haven’t got a week’s worth or a month’s worth! That’s what’s come in today. And that’s what happened. And Ron Neil said, If you get rid of restaurant, you can get rid of me too. It’s actually all written and documented in the book on the BBC by Michael Billington. The whole crisis is there. And when this hit the press and everything else, and of course, I was a choir boy at Harefield, Middlesex, St Mary’s Church, I have a deep faith and everything. So it was a bit ironic that the Archbishop of Canterbury should have it in for me. And I actually wrote to him, and I said, you don’t really understand what astrology is, and it’s not fortune telling. It is actually helping people to find their creative potential. And I think after a while, I got a letter back and I’ve never found it since which, in a kind of way, exonerated me in his eyes. Once I’d explained what astrology was, too many people are critical of astrology, not realising what it really is. But I had this priest from a Roman Catholic Church in Walton on Thames in Surrey. And he wrote, or sent me, or one of his parishioners sent me, it was a long time ago, a newsletter, and it basically said, All of this drama over Russell Grant and the Archbishop of Canterbury, as far as I’m concerned if he brings joy and happiness to people in whatever way he does it, he should just carry on doing it. And that was the Roman Catholic priest from Walton. I’d found fame was something I never expected to try and find fame from, astrology. I found notoriety through it. I’ve found the good side of notoriety, being famous for all the right things. Notoriety came from other people’s wrong perception or assumption of what astrology is when it basically wasn’t.

Gary Crotaz 30:37
You said to me before, when we were talking about this, you said, fame can be a devil of a thing. What do you mean by that?

Russell Grant 30:44
Yes, fame can be a devil of the thing because once, the difference between the two is when you’d walk around a supermarket as an astrologer, everybody would follow you and nab you by the groceries or the freezer department or the, just as you’re leaving after the cash point saying, Oh, I’m an Aries, can you tell me what’s, I’m a Cancerian and all the rest of it. When I did Strictly the kind of fame I got from that was, Oh how do you do it? and I found myself doing sambas, normally a botofogo in the middle of the aisle, which just happens to be one of my favourite moves. And I do that and, and I remember once around here, I live near Porthmadog, which is my nearest Tescos. And I remember at the back of the supermarket, it’s not terribly big, I have had about six or seven people all, I was teaching them botofogos and they were doing it in the back of Tescos. And I love that! Whereas with people asking me questions about sun signs, which is so, so far away from a proper astrological chart, I found that more difficult, because how can you say to people, because they, it’s like when they read columns, so many people read what they want to read rather than than what is actually written. And I don’t think that applies just to astrology. I think that happens with a lot of things. People read and see what they want to read and see. Whereas with a samba in a supermarket, it’s very different, because they can see it. And that’s it. You can’t misconstrue it.

Gary Crotaz 32:41
I love this, this story of how Strictly brought out your sort of true spontaneous self. And I’d love to hear a little bit more about who you were when you were growing up. You know, when you’re when you’re a boy, when you’re when you’re growing up. What were you like when you were young? And how does that relate to where you are now?

Russell Grant 33:00
Oh goodness, when I was young, I was an introvert. I used to like to stay in and still do. A very strong artistic streak in writing, calligraphy I’ve learned now, and that came from my dad. My dad was a wonderful signwriter, he could knock up a sign for his local, Middlesex Foxes was his golf band of brothers who were based at Pinner Hill. And you, I could watch him in awe where he would do this beautiful writing and up, he would create, without any mistakes, this fantastic poster. Well he was a set designer over at Pinewood Studios, Denham Studios and worked with some of the very great stars of the day from Rex Harrison to Noel Coward, all of these fabulous people and that’s where he met my mum, who was a contract secretary at Pinewood and my mum had a different kind of artistic streak. My mum was a great performer. And I would say think Ethel Merman. Betty Hutton, Betty Grable for those people who are old enough to know them. I suppose in, if most people would know like a Bette Midler, that was my mum. And, and so whereas my dad gave me the artistic streak when it came to colours and writing. In fact one of my latest books was an adult colouring book, which is called The Art of Astrology. And it gave me a chance to explore colour and the psychological effects of colour upon you. I loved doing that book, and that stemmed from dad Whereas mum it was about performance, it was a bit like Ethel Merman in Gypsy, dragging me along to the local Harefield Amateur Dramatics Society, but I loved it. As I said earlier I played the pussycat in Dick Whittington. And mum was Dick Whittington, and it was mum who sent me to drama school. My dad didn’t want it at all, because I think he’d seen too much of what went on in studios with actors, they hit the bottle or they have problems when they can’t get work or anything. And as fate would have it, or Kismet, one of my favourite musicals, would have it, I have never wanted for work. And my heart and soul is in what I do. I’m a perfectionist, OCD many would think, and probably say. My dad was like that. So he didn’t want me to go into showbiz. My mum sent me to a drama school, which was the Daphne Davey School of Dance and Drama. And I didn’t do the dance bit, I did the drama bit. And it was in the lovely, lovely old building called The Barn, which is in Ruislip, in Middlesex, and we, but it was an outreach of LAMDA, London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art. And we used to have to trail up to Talgarth Road a couple of times a year to do our exams and perform. I remember one being when I played Shylock in Merchant of Venice, and then we had to improvise and I remember improvising to Dvořák’s New World Symphony, Noah and his Ark. So all of these things still stay with me. So it was my mum who basically got me to go to Daphne’s school. We had a wonderful time, I loved it. We were there most weekends doing stuff because I was at an ordinary state secondary school during the week. And it was almost done in subterfuge, dad didn’t find out I mean, he did in the end, and by that time it was too late anyway. But of course, these drama schools act as agents for you as well. And so I then started to get calls, after having one job for a BBC Wednesday Play. Ironically, I was playing a Welsh boy. And I lived in Wales for much of my life. And after that, the work just kept coming in through the drama school. I loved it. I loved every bit of it. A lot of hanging around though for television, especially if you did On The Buses, you had to get up to Wood Green, the bus station there, because the buses were called I think Luxton & District, but we had to go up to Wood Green. So they used Wood Green Garage. And most of the time with television but not with theatre is hanging around. Because in theatre, you go on that stage, it’s live. You can’t say to somebody, I’ll be back in a minute. Or would you mind holding on, I want to do that again. And that’s the big difference between the two. But I love them both.

Gary Crotaz 38:32
Was it difficult not having your father’s support for the career that you were pursuing?

Russell Grant 38:37
No, well I’ve always been an independent being. I’ve always wanted to do what I want to do. Astrologically I’m a double Aquarian, so that means I do do what I want to do. And I always tried to do it without hurting others, Libra Ascendant for the astrology, what can I call them, enthusiasts listening! And so I’ve been always very diplomatic. In fact, I used to have at the top of my Twitter page, till the BBC made me take it off, Do as you would be done by, because I believe that you cannot criticise somebody for something that you wouldn’t do. You can only do any kind of criticism or comparison if you could match them in every way, so Do as you would be done by sums that all up. In fact, talking about my dad. It was very interesting because at the very, during Strictly we got to know each other probably the best we ever had. Because we didn’t have a close relationship, Dad and I. But when I did Strictly I used to stay at his house in Uxbridge. And Dad said to me one day that was I, we just left the show after the cannon. My legs couldn’t take any more. And I put out on all my social media, BBC didn’t like it, but I did. Please don’t vote for me anymore. I can’t, I can’t do the jiveathon. And when I got back to dad’s place, Bruce rang, and Bruce said, You have been the most amazing performer and you really are my favourite. I’m not just saying that. And then my dad who’d answered the phone, after the conversation was over said, I want you to know how proud I am of you, Russ, but I wasn’t sure if it was because Bruce Forsyth, had rung who was a golfer like my dad, but no I’m being cynical. He was and I knew it. And we got on like a house on fire right up until the day he died, August the 8th 2019.

Gary Crotaz 41:07
I promised that you were going to tell the story about you being fired out of a cannon because that’s a real sort of TV moment. Tell me about that. Tell me of the day somebody said there’s a cannon and you’re going to be fired out of it, Russell.

Russell Grant 41:21
Well we’re, we’re going back to Moira Ross, the big boss, who first inveigled me into coming into Strictly Come Dancing because I had a natural samba walk. And we just finished our paso doble, which was great fun, I played it like Benny Hill actually on top of a bull and had those sort of glasses, spectacles, which were like the bottom of pint glasses. And we had great fun with that, March of the Toreadors of course by Bizet, had to be in a way. And just before we came to the show, I was in my dressing room. And Moira came in, she went, I want to fire you out of a cannon. And I said, Do what you want love. I knew I had to do the paso doble. I said, And of course it much depends if I’m going to get through. I speak to you after. Well, we did the show, we did get through. And Moira came to my dressing room. Okay, she said, If you get to Wembley, I think I was about one or two weeks off Wembley by then, I want to fire you out of a cannon! I said, Well you did say that then did you, before I went on to do the paso. She went Yes, of course I meant it! How’d you feel about it? I said, Well, fine. She said, Well, it’s going to be British Week. I’ve got a lovely number. Because by now of course Moira knew if they gave me the wrong song, I wasn’t going to bring out my best. When we did our salsa they gave me Baccara’s Yes Sir, I Can Boogie and I hated it so much. I wrote a long letter to Moira and said, Is there any way you can change the song? No, we don’t do that. And then she said, Come back to me in half an hour. And I got for my salsa Dancing Queen! Perfect! I said, but she knew then that the music, I invested in the music. Anyway. We had a lovely number. I really loved it, Reach For The Stars. And it was just glorious. And when we got to Wembley, I used to live in Wembley, that part of Middlesex was always very special to me. And we, we were rehearsing and we were doing all of our thing and then we had to do the cannon bit. So we’d finished our jive stuff rehearsals, into the cannon, I was just in heaven, quite literally. It was this flimsy little tea tray thing with four bits of wire on each corner. And can you believe it? I wanted to just keep rehearsing, I loved it, the music was so right for that and so I was clicking away and up I went up and down I came and I rehearsed it six times and in the end Moira came and said you cannot rehearse it any more. Just one more time? No, you’ve rehearsed it six times. She said, I think you do like it. And you can do it. I went Yeah, maybe! But I did and I could have stayed up there in that cannon. The funniest thing about that, Gary, is that when it was so highly publicised, and I mean highly, I think they got something ridiculous like 13, 14 million people watching. There was a headline which Moira showed me, which basically was the highest audience ever, it was because everybody, there’ll be some people who want to see me fail, always the schadenfreudes out there. And then there’s the others who just exalted in my joy and happiness and bliss. And it’s six thousand people, I’ve never played before such a big live audience. And they stuffed me into the cannon. And I looked around, and as they were stuffing me in, everybody stood up and cheered and gave me a standing ovation. And I’d done nothing except be stuffed into a cannon. What a wonderful, wonderful evening.

Gary Crotaz 45:54
It’s so interesting, because for somebody with a career as successful and high profile as yours, to have a moment at that stage that redefines how everybody sees you and is now, you know, when people think of Russell Grant, they think of you being fired out of a cannon instead of Russell Grant from Breakfast TV, you know, years ago, it’s so interesting that that such an iconic moment can can change the perception of so many millions of people in that way.

Russell Grant 46:23
When I took over from the Wizard of Oz, or took over from Michael in the Wizard of Oz, which in itself was oh, goodness me, it was nerve-wracking because Michael Crawford had always been a hero of mine, not so much his stuff, Betty, Betty, which kind of got on my nerves. But when, I went to the opening night of Phantom of the Opera, and he was just amazing. He was absolutely incredible. And my uncle, who followed mum and dad into the film industry, he was involved with a lot of musical theatre, they used to bring him in, and he had the early rushes for Hello, Dolly. And of course, Michael Crawford was in Hello Dolly playing the juvenile lead. And I just thought he was wonderful and, and so to be asked, Bill Kenwright and Andrew Lloyd Webber, to take over the Wizard of Oz was just insane. And I turned it down of course, which is, you know, typical me like with Strictly. I turned it down mainly because I thought, I can’t, I can’t step into Michael Crawford’s shoes. But I did. And I got this lovely note from him, and a bouquet of flowers for opening night. A lovely, wonderful man. And it was, it was just simply incredible. When I came out the stage door, the amount of people waiting for me. And they were all, as you quite rightly said Gary, it was all about Strictly. It was all they were saying. Oh, I remember when you did this. And I remember when you did that. I remember when you came out the Christmas pudding, that was the Christmas Special. And the cannon, the cannon, the cannon, the cannon, the cannon. If Yuri Gagarin thought he had a good thing going by getting to the moon, then I was obviously Britain’s Yuri, before Tim Peake was around.

Gary Crotaz 48:35
So that’s very interesting. This pattern of, somebody asks you to do something that might change your life. So Moira asked you to do Strictly and Andrew asked you to play the Wizard in The Wizard of Oz. And your first response in both cases was No. When it came to the Wizard of Oz, what turned the No into a Yes for you?

Russell Grant 48:55
Oh, Lulu, who’d been a friend of mine for many years, came with me to see Michael do the Wizard of Oz. And we went on the 28th of December, just after Christmas, after the Christmas Special. And so in 2011, 28th December, we went to see Michael in the Wizard of Oz. And to be perfectly honest with you, I wasn’t really keen on it. And I wasn’t keen on it because Michael did a lot of his stuff as an actor. There was no dance. And I actually said to Andrew, and to Bill Kenwright, I don’t really see the point in me doing this. I said because you can get many good actors who can do that. But the reason you’ve contacted me is because of my dancing. My showbiz, my performance-type dance, you know. And it was strange because it was almost as though they hadn’t even thought of that, that Michael did no dancing at all. He performed it, he did the numbers, a particularly difficult number called Wonders of the World, the very beginning of the number when he comes on, he has three incarnations the Wizard, he is Marvo the Magician, he is the Gatekeeper to Oz. And of course, he’s then the Wizard of Oz, and each character is neatly defined. Marvo is sort of, you know, a drawling American, and it was sort of southern, well it’s Kansas. And, and so therefore, I had to do this wonderful number sat on a log. I said, I can’t do it sitting on a log. Anyway, in the end Arlene Phillips, who, I adore Arlene, because she gave me the tremendous confidence. And her assistant, Richard Roe. And they built up this number into more of a dance number, I did a little bit of Fred Astaire, a bit of American Smooth, I did a bit of paso. I did a bit of this, that and the other and it became a great favourite of mine, difficult, difficult song. It was a bit like a patter song from Gilbert and Sullivan. And it wasn’t easy. But it was wonderful. But the big highlight was this amazing coming towards the end of Act One entrance to the Land of Oz. And I have the photo always with me. And I just adored it, and it was based on samba – there was a ha ha ha, hee hee hee. Lum-ba-lum, ba-ba-dah, and then it goes into a charleston and a samba, work out those two together. So you get bam-bam, bam-bam, dum-de-dum-de-dum, bam bam bam bam, twiddle-de-dum, twiddle-de-dum, and, and it goes into this huge dance number. Again, it wasn’t in the show, or it was in the show, but Michael didn’t do it. And so they built me into this number, which to this day is one of my, I mean, talking about finding my bliss, my goodness, did that number give me all the bliss imaginable. Doing this I played it sort of quite seriously, because the Gatekeeper is not a jolly man. And so I was doing the samba and these moves, and the lines and it was just heavenly!

Gary Crotaz 52:57
So Russell, if someone’s listening in and they’re facing into something that feels very daunting, as you were when somebody said to you, do you want to do Strictly or do you want to play in the Wizard of Oz? What would you say to them from your own experience of that, that first sense of, I can’t do it? And then what came through for you, what happened for you?

Russell Grant 53:24
I would certainly listen, tell them to listen to people around them. But only trusted people, don’t make a big meal of it. I didn’t go around asking loads of people, I put nothing on social media, because you just get this cacophony of noise, where people don’t have your best interests at heart, or certainly not all of them. But loved ones, people close to you, people who really know you, they’re the people to explore it with. And it is an exploration, you have to go through a discovery of perhaps what you’ve denied yourself and what you need in yourself and for yourself. And once I’d explored Strictly, I knew the reason I was doing it was not for my career. Because as I say, I’ve never ever stopped working with astrology. I’ve written 78 books, I now write for, oh goodness me I think eight or nine national newspapers with my astrological stars.

Gary Crotaz 54:34
So when you look back over this incredible journey you’ve been on, with these highlights around Strictly and the Palladium, and you have this whole theme of of discovering, of finding your your bliss, what would you say that the secret of finding your bliss is?

Russell Grant 54:52
Mine came as a result of being in a very, very dark place having lost three, or two people and one animal that I loved. And I just skidded downwards. I think it’s taking control of your life. It’s about not allowing yourself to, what can I say, collapse in a heap. That’s what I did. I just didn’t care, didn’t want to care and wasn’t bothered. It was only when I realised that I need to do something to shake myself up, that I had to take control of my life. And I think, I say to a lot of people now, ask yourself a question. When you’re feeling down, when you’re feeling blue, when you’re just, feel that you’ve got no aim in life. Ask yourself the simple question. What is it that I’m missing in my life? What do I need in my life? And then aspire to go after it and get it. It won’t be easy. It never is things never are. Because you’ve always got the naysayers around you. And you’ve always got, oh the worst, officialdom, red tape. But there’s a way round things. And it’s interesting because for every setback, I personally, I, every setback, I was suddenly rewarded with a bonus where I could go forward. And I think it’s about not giving up hope. Having good, solid people around you, good friends, not friends that use you for the wrong reasons. Not so-called friends, who would sell you down the river and basically want something from you, I mean they’re the ones, the fairweather friends who, you know, when I get a phone call from someone I’ve not heard from from years, I’m always waiting for the payoff line. So we talk for five minutes about, How you been, oh, so and so and so. And then the last bit is, I just wondered if you could do me a favour? Fairweather friends I’ve not heard from in a year, and suddenly they want a favour. It’s a matter of being selective. It’s a matter of, it’s a matter of finding out what it is you’re missing in your life and then going after it.

Gary Crotaz 57:38
That’s amazing Russell, and thank you so much for being so open in telling your story today. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Russell Grant, it was a life-changing call to join the cast of Strictly Come Dancing that reconnected him with a long-lost passion for performing and brought out his natural spontaneity lost for many years. It gave him a new lease of life and refreshed energy that he has used to throw himself into projects he cares deeply about, and to make a difference everyday to those around him. He is living proof that it’s never too late to create a life you love. Russell as ever, it has been a huge privilege to spend time with you. Thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Russell Grant 58:22
Thank you.

Gary Crotaz 58:25
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly, where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you will be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Simon Alexander Ong is a personal development entrepreneur, coach and public speaker. I first came across him when I saw one of his many videos he shares on YouTube and was immediately impressed with the clarity and focus that he brings to his message. Simon’s clients are from all walks of life, but they share one trait – they all believe that the greatest investment you can make is in yourself. His work has seen him invited onto Sky News, BBC Radio London and LBC while Barclays UK featured him in a nationwide campaign asking him questions on how families could embrace better lifestyle habits. His insights have seen him featured in HuffPost, Forbes, Virgin and The Guardian. He regularly speaks at organisations and keynotes for public events and conferences. Simon’s debut book ‘Energize’ is published by Penguin on the 21st of April 2022. And if we’ve got our podcast scheduling right then that’s right around now. Energize has received endorsements from the likes of New York Times bestselling authors, Simon Sinek, Marie Forleo, Keith Ferrazzi, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith and Dorie Clark, I can’t wait to be energised by this conversation. I’m sure you’re feeling the same! Simon. It is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Simon Alexander Ong 2:17
Gary, thank you so much for the very kind introduction, and for having me on your show.

Gary Crotaz 2:22
Thank you so much. I’m looking forward to it. So start off with telling us a little bit about your story. When I watch your talks and videos online, they’re full of amazing insights and thoughts and ideas to help people find clarity in their own lives. But I’d love to start by finding out more about you. And where this all started in your own journey.

Simon Alexander Ong 2:40
Sure, Gary. I grew up in the South East of England, in a county called Kent. And up until I attended university, I had always believed, mistakenly believed actually, that success was defined by my job title, be a banker, be a lawyer, be a doctor, be an accountant. And so I pursued the banking route. After university, I started in the financial services sector in the middle of 2007, which was probably the worst time to begin in that industry, because this was a year before the financial crisis swept across the planet. And just to make things a little more interesting, the first company that I started with was Lehman Brothers, which collapsed into administration just 14 months or so after, after I started as a graduate. And while, while at the time, it was a scary period, you know, I remember talking to my dad and telling him that I’m going to hopefully get a promotion, move up in the company and then decide in a couple of years where I wanted to move next. Unfortunately, that happened very quickly. And I had to make many of those decisions within 18 months of joining my first company. But in hindsight, Gary, it was one of those beautiful blessings in disguise because it kick started, for me, the longest journey that we humans make the inches from my heads to our hearts. And it is never an easy journey, but it is the most important and fulfilling that we will ever embark on. And so even though I stayed in the financial industry for nearly 10 years, I was in and out of jobs, moving from company to company, moving between different roles from research to trading to sales. It started a thought in my head about what could be possible if I was to start working for myself. And it also got me questioning those beliefs that I had held for so long in my life that success was defined by my job title. In fact, I started to question what success meant for me.

Gary Crotaz 4:51
Where did those beliefs come from?

Simon Alexander Ong 4:54
I think it was probably from family and, and school. because, you know, I was in a position in which nobody in my direct family had, had started and scaled a successful business. And so everybody went down the traditional route of working, working as employee in the company. And so naturally, I would not have known any better because that’s, that’s what I grew up seeing around me. And when I was at school, I remember the careers advisor that we had, who was helping us fill in these forms when we were applying to university, it was always about, well, What career are you thinking about going into. And because at the, at the canteen table, all of my fellow students were talking about who was going to be going to this university to study medicine, who was going to go here to study economics. I was naturally influenced by by the choices that other people were making. And, again, because I was not exposed to any other option, that for me was what the term in my view of the of the world when it came to success.

Gary Crotaz 6:05
What was the moment when you started to shift your thinking from, you know, this is the right thing to do. I’ve, you know, studied economics at university, I’ve gone into banking and you start ticking over. Maybe there’s something different when, when, when you think that when was the first time you were thinking like that?

Simon Alexander Ong 6:23
I think it would have been shortly after I started to question whether I wanted to build a career in finance after the crisis. Because before that moment, every day, I was working alongside people in finance, after work, I would be going drinking with people in finance, and on weekends, I would be socialising with people in finance. So my, my bubble was very, was very small, in terms of my thinking. And so once the crisis occurred, I started to question well, what else is there? What else could I explore? What else could I be doing with my life, if it wasn’t going to be in the financial services sector? And so I think that once I started to attend seminars, workshops, read different books hang around different communities and groups. That’s when I started to realise that success could be defined by something entirely different. Because here were some individuals who had not necessarily qualified with a university degree, earning very attractive sums of money running their own business. And that got me questioning whether the path I was on was really what I had thought it to be. And it began a big shift in my thinking.

Gary Crotaz 7:43
and talk to me more about the same and outside of the finance world. So what other things did you do when you’re growing up? What were you interested in? What, what other activities did you do? What kind of thinker were you when you’re growing up?

Simon Alexander Ong 7:54
So I was, I was a very deep thinker. I guess what I mean by that Gary is, I was very stereotypically Chinese in the sense that I was your hard working student, I was very shy, highly introverted, which, when I share with audiences now many people can’t, can’t believe it. Because obviously, I speak on many stages. Now, I do lots of videos and interviews, but when I was growing up, I was very shy, introverted and hardworking. And so I would prefer to sit at the back of the room to focus on my homework, to focus on my studies, rather than socialising and hanging out with the, the cool boys and girls if you’re were on the weekends, out in the fields playing sports. And so that was me growing up, I was very shy and introverted, which, which helped in terms of my academic grades, and helped me to get to some good schools. But for me, it’s, it changed when I went to university because I was the only one for my school, to go to the university that I went to, I went to the London School of Economics. And because I was shy and introverted, throughout, throughout my childhood, and throughout my teenage years, it meant that when my when my mum passed away when I was 17, it got me even further into my shell. Because this was a, this was a time of the world in which mental health wasn’t really spoken much about. And there were no, there were no resources to a 17 year old on how to respond and manage a situation like that. And being a, being a guy you know, lots of people naturally say man up, move on, don’t cry bounce back. without any regard to the emotional rollercoaster that can come with losing someone so close to you. So that moves me even further inwards, and in a way although I didn’t like being the only student from my secondary school to go to university because usually there were at least two or three of you that would go to the same university. So you had some sort of foundation where you knew a couple of friends already, I went to my university not knowing anybody. But in a way, I think it helped because I had this blank canvas Gary where I could now create new friendship circles and network with new people who never knew about my background, who didn’t know the old Simon. And it took me another year until I could open up more about what happened with with my mum. And that accelerated when I joined the, when I joined the drama society at university. And I deliberately joined that actually, because once I realised that I had to present more at university as part of the, as part of the courses, I knew that I hated presenting, because I never really presented growing up. And so I thought that by joining the drama society, it would challenge me and push me out of my comfort zone, because I now had to rehearse with other people to then go on to stage and perform in front of an audience. And for me, that really helped to get me out of my shell, to get me to express more of my feelings, my emotions, and how I wanted to share my insights with an audience. And the other thing where it really accelerated, Gary was after I met my now wife, in my final year of university, she really helped open me up. And then when I transitioned out of the corporate world into entrepreneurship, I knew that unless I could sell myself unless I could be the voice of my business, it would be very difficult to develop a thriving career in what I wanted to do. And so in a way, there was no option, I had to become a better public speaker, in order to share my work and talk about the value that I could bring into the lives of others.

Gary Crotaz 11:56
And it’s so interesting, because I mean, you know, I mean, I, I’m reasonably familiar, but it’d be great for you to bring to life a little bit of what’s, what’s the cultural environment of being in a bank, you know, and in that sort of investment banking environment? And how is that, how does that compare with the cultural environment that you’re in today in the work that you do now? I’m imagining, I mean, it’s, it’s like chalk and cheese, that that, you know, I’m imagining that Simon coming out of university, going into the investment banking community, that’s a very particular culture and environment that you were going into,

Simon Alexander Ong 12:28
it’s, it was a very particular culture and environment. You’re right, Gary. And also, even if you compare the environment from the investment banking world then to today, it’s massively different as well. I remember recently, I, I delivered a talk at Barclays over in Canary Wharf here in the UK. And now they have committees such as a wellbeing committee. Now, if you go back to when I joined the industry back in 2007, you would have been laughed out of the building for suggesting such an idea of having a wellbeing committee because I went onto the, onto the trading floor. And it was very much what you would see in those films like Wall Street, or The Wolf of Wall Street, where Leonardo DiCaprio, there was lots of shouting, it was very, very male dominant behaviour, if you will, in which it was about getting every sale, it was about making the most money. And there was no place to understand well, how are you feeling? It was either you succeeded or you didn’t. And if you didn’t, you were yelled at, you were shouted at, and they would very quickly want you out of the team. And so it was very alpha male driven in that culture. Of course, I think today, the environment has massively changed. And I think that’s also been a result of the fact that they’ve been losing a lot of talent in that industry to the startup industry. And so they’ve had to have some sort of cultural shift. But back then it was it was very cutthroat. And it was very intense in terms of the environment you were walking into.

Gary Crotaz 14:04
I remember talking to one of my former colleagues in the retail and consumer banking space. And they worked for quite a traditional bank that was acquired by Klarna. And so moving into that kind of tech-led financial services space where they didn’t wear suits. And for the people coming from the traditional banking environment, that was a really radical thing. And then they said, well, we don’t have an org structure, either everyone works in, in dynamic agile squads and teams, you know, it’s really interesting, and I laughed slightly when you said wellbeing committee, because precisely because it’s so the right answer, but it’s so radically different. And when you say 2007, like, like, it’s 1922 you know, it’s like, it feels like you know, generations ago, but actually it was really recent, you know, we’re not talking very long ago that it was still very much like that. I’m sure there’s still change to go. I think when you were talking, I’m thinking, there’s a lot of people that probably quite severely broken by being spat out at the bottom of that kind of culture, back in those days, you didn’t make it, you know, there wasn’t a soft landing for you somewhere I don’t think

Simon Alexander Ong 15:13
Not at all. I mean, I still remember in the, in the final few weeks, that Lehman was still alive before it fell into bankruptcy in September 2008. I remember walking into the office on Monday, and the way that they got rid of you, if you were made redundant was brutal. I mean, you would walk into the office on a Monday morning, and somebody that you were working next to, you would look at his or her desk, and suddenly it would just be empty. But you have no idea what happened. And there wasn’t such a thing as at the time as a leaving do, because well they’ve already left, they’ve been kicked out the building, their security policy has been revoked, and you’ll never see them again, in the office. And so it was very cutthroat, very brutal, very extreme when you think about how people are laid off today. So it’s a lot more nicer how they’re laid off today, compared to how it was back then. And it was really my second experience, in broader finance, I moved after Lehman Brothers to a hedge fund. And that really took its toll on me physically, mentally, and spiritually. And that, for me was, was a big turning moment to start addressing my health. Because I was getting little sleep, I was surviving on junk food and takeaways. And I wasn’t really exercising. And so seeing the impact that it had on my body, and my mind started to tell me, this wasn’t for me. And, and so I can relate to many people who have gone through that, and have changed their career choices or changed their lifestyle as a result of what happened.

Gary Crotaz 16:47
And it’s really powerful hearing your lived experience of going through this kind of thing. It makes much more sort of coherent sense why you are who you are today, and why the narrative that you have where the messages you’re giving, are the ones that they are – you haven’t made it up, it’s comes from, from from you. And that’s I think that’s that’s really powerful. So, so one of the things I mean, we’re going to come on talk much more about the book, I’d love to hear more about the book that’s coming out. But the heart of this conversation is about this idea of an Unlock Moment. And, and that’s a sort of flash of clarity, when you suddenly figured out the right path ahead. And I know we talked a little bit before we started recording. So bring us into that moment of of the point where you saw your future ahead of you – where were you and what was happening for you at that time.

Simon Alexander Ong 17:36
Sure. So I guess in the build up to this so called Unlock Moment, when I realised that I wanted to do something outside of the corporate world, i.e. not become an employee anymore, but to pursue something that I could do for myself, so I could become my own boss, if you will. I followed my curiosity, I got involved in a couple of businesses, they didn’t work out for the obvious reasons that I wasn’t passionate enough about them. And I wasn’t committed to them. And then I remember going to this event held in East London at the Excel Centre. It was organised by a company called Success Resources. And it was called National Achievers’ Congress. It was a three day event Friday to Sunday, with speakers such as Tony Robbins, Donald Trump, before he became president, and a series of other well known individuals within the business and entrepreneurial scenes. And so my wife and I went only for day one, actually, we just went to the first day because we mainly went because Tony Robbins was speaking. And we knew he was speaking on the first morning of the first the first day, as well as a number of other speakers that we followed. And as we sat in the audience, I was watching him do his thing, moving around the stage, coming into the audience. And in my mind, I started to imagine myself also being on stage, of sharing my story, sharing my experience with the audience. And I found myself rather than listening to his content, which many people did, they came to hear his content, I became very curious about how he did what he did. So while everybody was writing notes about beliefs and identity and action, I was actually writing down questions and thoughts such as, how did he start that talk? How did he end talk? How many stories did he use? What particular story did he use? Was it a personal story, a case study or professional story? And what point did he walk into the audience? So I became so fascinated about the mechanics of how he was doing what he was doing, that it made me want to explore more within this field. And it was that exposure that then got me to want to pursue a qualification in coaching. And then as you know, Gary, the rest is history because then things just started building from there.

Gary Crotaz 20:00
It’s amazing. And it’s interesting when when you’re describing that, you didn’t go for the purpose of diagnosing how he does what he does. You went to listen to him for his, for his content. But when you were there, in that moment, actually, what you’re thinking about diving into is how is he doing this? And describe the room, you know, how many people were in the room? What was the what’s the atmosphere like, what was the energy like when you were in that moment of sort of sudden pivot in your thinking?

Simon Alexander Ong 20:28
Well, I don’t know if any of the listeners have been to a Tony Robbins event. But if you have, you already know that the atmosphere is electric. He’s got a great way of building the audience up, which is something that I learned actually, from how he runs events is how do you build the energy up in the audience before you even get on stage? And everybody was, was engaged, everybody was present, because he had a way of hooking you on every word that he said. And that’s why it got me so curious. How was he doing this? How was he able to do the things he was doing? But yet the other speakers that came on stage after him, just couldn’t live up to the same, the same standard he had set. And that’s why it got me even more curious, because after the second speaker came on, the third speaker came on my wife and I looked at each other and said, shall we call it a day now? Because I think we’ve got all we needed from the first speaker. And, and that just set me on the path of learning. I wanted to learn how that was possible. And in a way, it’s some of the things I share in the book Energize. You know, there’s a certain energy that we transmit, when we speak, when we perform when we share our ideas that the audience feels, and you can’t, you can’t describe it in words, but you just come out and say, Wow, that was an experience. And it’s a feeling you get, and I wanted to understand how we could how we could get to that point.

Gary Crotaz 21:57
And what did it tell you about you that your response to that, hearing that talk was, I want to go and do something like that?

Simon Alexander Ong 22:09
I I think I take it as a as a sign from the universe, that maybe at the time, I wasn’t on the right path. And that here was the universe almost giving me a sign that those curiosities you’re having right now, Simon, those questions you’re having. There’s a reason why you’re interested in those mechanics. There’s a reason why you’re interested in how this particular individual is doing it. Your challenge is go and explore if you accept this path. And that is exactly what I started doing. And it’s, I’m not gonna lie, Gary, it’s been an incredible journey since then. And I look back at that moment and think, Well, what would life have been if I didn’t accept that challenge? You know, simply by accepting it, it literally reshaped my future and changed the person that I was?

Gary Crotaz 23:05
And how long has that been? You know, how long ago is it that we’re talking that you that you had that experience with Tony Robbins?

Simon Alexander Ong 23:10
So we’re talking about, about a decade ago now, a decade ago plus, because shortly after that, I then signed up to, to study for my coaching qualifications in 2012. So I started there, and it was around 18 to 20 months or so after I started that I qualified. And then it would take me another few years, before I would hand in my resignation at the job I was in at the time, and say, You know what, I’m going to go my own path and see what’s going to happen by becoming an entrepreneur. So it’s actually 10 plus years since I was at that event, that I’m now here speaking with you, Gary.

Gary Crotaz 23:55
So so it was an immediate response, really, that that was the beginning of that journey. And then over a few years you built into the, this is my full time focus and endeavour.

Simon Alexander Ong 24:06
Yeah, and that process took a few years for reason, because I’m naturally very risk averse. And so for me, I’m not the sort of person that will burn all the boats and go, Okay, I’m gonna jump straight into this. Even though there’s no revenue, even though I have no idea what I’m doing and there’s no plan. For me, I’d like to see some sort of, some sort of feedback that this path could work. And so for me, it was about building a bridge, if you will, from where it was to where I wanted to be. And in the final job I had, I felt like Superman if you were without the superpower, so I was going into the office, nice ironed white shirt, tie and suit jacket and in my gym bag, I would have my now customary black T shirt and jeans. And so when I had a potential client I was going to meet or an event that I that I had signed up to attend. I would very quickly leave my desk go into toilet cubicle, change out of my suit into my black T shirt and jeans and run to that event or meeting that I had scheduled. And so I was living this double life for a couple of years, until I started to get paying clients. And once I started to get paying clients, it then pushed me, Gary, into this situation where I had to make a choice. Either I continue with my day job. And I cap my clients to just three clients, because I could not take on any more given I was still working for a company, or I quit the daytime job. And I shift 100% of my energy into working on this business. So when that time came, I’m not gonna lie, it took me a number of weeks to finally decide that I was going to choose the latter option, to hand in my resignation, and go down a path of entrepreneurship because there’s a big difference between having an employee mindset versus an entrepreneur mindset. Because I’d never been an entrepreneur before, it was going to be a big change. But once I handed in that resignation, I had a feeling inside of me like butterflies in your stomach of excitement, that this was now the path I was going to go on, that this was the path that was going to be the most meaningful to me.

Gary Crotaz 26:21
I love that. And I love how you describe it so vividly what it feels like to be in that point, because almost all entrepreneurs have that moment, unless you’ve got a trust fund or a lottery win behind you. There’s a moment where you go, you know, my life would be more stable and certain if I stay in employment and with the salary and all the benefits and all those kinds of things. And actually, I’m going, No, I’m going to take a risk and back myself to do what I’m going to do. So so the book is called Energize, and there’s been this journey around the theme of energy. And you’ve, I know you’ve you’ve talked a lot about that topic. So talk to me about at what point and how did energy become something that was a real hot topic for you to focus your, your, your, your narrative on?

Simon Alexander Ong 27:08
Sure. Well, when I was reflecting on what to write about, for for the book, Gary, there were a number of ideas that came up. And the reason that energy stuck with me. And just to give you a bit of behind the scenes actually, when I wrote the original proposal to submit to the publisher, the working title was actually energy is everything. And then as I started writing, as we edited the material, we then reduced the length for the title to just Energize because we felt it was more action-oriented. And so the reason I wrote it from that lens is because one, my own personal experience of going through a period of my life, post the financial crisis, where I literally had no energy, I was exhausted, I was tired, I was drained from working in something that wasn’t fulfilling, yet demanded so much from me physically and mentally. And I wanted to share how addressing that energy deficit can give us the foundation for creating our best lives. Because once I started to work on my physical energy, once I started to work towards something meaningful, and master my own emotions and mindset, things just started aligning in a way that I could never have imagined. So that’s one of the reasons. Secondly, is when I started speaking on stages, I would often get people coming up to me after I would walk off the stage, saying, Simon, I loved your energy while you’re on stage. You know, what, if I could have just a small percentage of the energy you have, I could go on and achieve so much of my goals. So that’s the second reason. And the third is when I was looking at some of the most successful leaders and thinkers in the world, I noticed that they were not necessarily the smartest or the fastest at what they do. But they were the best in terms of managing their energy so that they could thrive rather than just survive. They knew that if they were always feeling exhausted, they can’t possibly show up as their best selves each day. And if you have a vision, or a goal that is big and bold, you are going to need a lot of energy to make that happen. And so bringing those three things together made me want to write the book through the lens of well, if we understand how to manage our energy better, we will transform the way we live and work.

Gary Crotaz 29:46
And it’s really interesting. So who’s the book for? Who’s who’s your who’s the reader of Energize?

Simon Alexander Ong 29:54
It’s interesting Gary because when I was writing this book, I was constantly thinking about well who would I be writing this to? So that I can visualise him or her in front of my mind as I was writing the book over the last two years. And it’s funny because the person that came straight into my mind as I was writing the book was the me in 2009, just after the financial crisis. And so I felt like, as I was writing the book, I was writing it for me back then, the person that was exhausted, the person that was feeling a little lost in life, and the person that felt they needed some inspiration and motivation, to discover what their purpose was, to discover what they’re meant to do. And so that’s the person I started off with Gary. Now, as I started writing, then, of course, other audiences came into my mind as I moved from chapter to chapter, part to part, but for me, for most of the early part of the writing, that was the person that I was writing to,

Gary Crotaz 30:56
It’s so interesting, you’re talking to yourself! And, you know, I mean, you know, this is also as an experienced coach too, that ability to be very self reflective, as you’re, as you’re writing is really powerful. And I think that will also come through in your speaking too, because there’s so many people out there who will stand on stage and spout stuff that they’ve seen on YouTube, and then they can say it to other people too, with energy. And the reason it doesn’t land is because it’s not real. It’s not authentic. It’s not, you know, it’s not meaningful from them. So I love that, you know, you’re sitting there thinking, I wished this book had been around for me in 2009, as a way of saying it, isn’t it?

Simon Alexander Ong 31:35
Definitely.

Gary Crotaz 31:36
And what kind of book is it? What’s it? What’s experience of reading Energize?

Simon Alexander Ong 31:43
Sure, so, in my journey in the personal development field, Gary, I’ve been influenced by, by so many books and styles that I’ve resonated with. So we’ve got on the one hand, the likes of the Go Giver, the Alchemist, Robin Sharma’s books, which are very narrative driven, and story-led. And on the other hand, we’ve got the more academic and practical books such as Adam Grant’s work, Daniel Pink’s work, and Simon Sinec’s work. So for me, I wanted to blend those influences because I love storytelling. I am a speaker, I love sharing stories. I love extracting lessons from stories. So I wanted to blend that element, as well as the more practical part, because I’m a coach, you know I started my journey as a coach. And so I wanted to give the readers exercises and activities and questions for them to reflect on their own journey. And so for me, I blended the two and created a narrative through the book. So the first part is about how we can awaken that energy inside of us. The second is how we can rewire our energetic state. The third is about how we protect our personal energy. And the fourth part is about how we can then supercharge our life. And by and large, that is a reflection of my own journey from going as a graduate at Lehman Brothers all the way to now being a coach, a speaker and author. And so I wanted to take them on that journey of what I had learned, but also the process I went through, that they can apply in their own in their own journey.

Gary Crotaz 33:14
And where do you sit on the kind of spectrum from, you know, some people are really focused on your daily habits and your daily routine. And there’s other people that are really focused on some very big picture, thinking, Where are you on that spectrum?

Simon Alexander Ong 33:26
It’s interesting because, for me, I would probably say I’m a bit of both. And then there’s a reason why because I think without the big vision, you have no context for today’s actions, you know, you don’t know where you’re going so well, any action, you can go ahead and do because you don’t really know where it’s going to lead to. So for me, I think we need a vision that is compelling and magnetic, because that’s what’s going to pull us forward. That’s what’s going to get us up in the morning, and excited about the day ahead. So for me, that’s the purpose of having a vision, which is absolutely necessary. Now, once you have that, for me, the paradox is once you know what it is, you want, to put it to one side, and that’s where you then focus on your, your habits and your rituals. Because then it’s about getting a system in place that makes that vision inevitable. So I think there’s, there’s a lot to be said for both. But for me, I think I sort of believe in the input of both of these ideas. You need the vision, but then once you have the vision, put it to one side and focus on the habits because now you’ve got context for what habits are going to be essential for you to make that progress.

Gary Crotaz 34:39
I love that when you said ‘make your vision inevitable’. I think that’s a really nice phrase, I love it. A couple of things that, you sent me very kindly a little sort of extract from the book and there are a couple of things that that said that I’d love to dig into more – the first of them is you were talking about why an eternal student mindset matters. Can you bring that to life a little bit for us?

Simon Alexander Ong 35:00
Sure. So what I’ve come to understand is that often in life, people will arrive at a destination. So let’s say that becoming CEO of a company that’s getting a million dollars in revenue for your business, that is becoming a world champion in the, in the field of sports that you operate in. But what tends to happen after that is quite interesting, because then people tend to become complacent, they take their foot off the pedal. And it’s why it’s easier to win that first title than it is to retain it again, and again, and again. Because we relax, we forget how we got there. And for me, that’s what I that’s what I want to understand – well, what made the difference between people that could sustain that, across many years, often their entire lifetime versus those who were one-hit wonders, who achieved incredible successes yet disappeared from the radar. And for me, it came down to this fact that they were eternal students, that they were always learning. And it’s something that I’ve embraced as part of my journey. Gary, one of the questions I often get asked is, is where do you think, you know, what do you think Simon about where you are right now? Do you think you’re kind of there in terms of whatever ‘there’ means for you? And I say to them, you know, the truth is, I feel like I still am just getting started. And I think that’s a feeling you get when you are an eternal student, because you’re learning something different every year. You have this excitement and thirst to acquire more knowledge and information, which makes you feel you’re always just getting started. And also, the fact is, the world is always changing. And so even just five years ago, if I were to launch a book, I would not have heard of the term metaverse. But now today in 2022, I’m now talking to someone about doing a book launch in the metaverse and I’m gonna be honest with you, Gary, I don’t know much about the metaverse, but because I’m an eternal student, I’m learning about it as I go along. And so that’s why I feel like I’m still just getting started because there is so much more to learn.

Gary Crotaz 37:13
We had my wife’s cousin and her boyfriend staying with us over New Year, and they’re in their early 20s. And into all of this kind of stuff. I think he’s a tech developer. And it’s the first time in my life that anybody’s ever said to me, ‘I’m really sorry, I’m in the other room in the metaverse’ and that and I was like, ‘Okay, I remember that sentence, that’s the first time that’s ever come up in conversation!’ So, so the other the other statement that that was in, in the content you sent through, which fascinated me as a, as a, as an ex-doctor, was how to bend our reality by becoming our own placebo. I was like, I have no idea what that means. And I’d love you to, to bring that to life.

Simon Alexander Ong 37:52
Sure. So in terms of the concept of bending our reality, it begins with an appreciation that there is no one reality. Now what I mean by this is that we all live in customised realities. So when an event happens, your interpretation of that will be very different to mine, very different to my partner’s and different to my friend’s. But that tells us something very profound. It tells us that reality is simply us living in the feeling of our thinking moment to moment to moment. So it is actually our thinking that creates the landscape of our reality. Now, if that is true, what that means is that we actually own a very powerful superpower, which is the fact that at any given moment, you and I can choose a different thought. And that new thought redesigns our reality. So if you were to experience an event, and initially you think it is bad, you are going to choose a set of actions and behaviours based on that feeling of that event is bad. But if you being more conscious about what happened, decide to change your response to actually this event could be good, then guess what, the choices and behaviours you now make will be very different. And so this is what I mean about the concept of bending our reality is the fact that because we can choose new thoughts at any moment, we can literally change the way we perceive our reality, and how we go ahead in terms of actions and behaviours. Now, talking about the second part of that statement about Be your own placebo. What I mean about this is that we know in the medicine, the medical field that a placebo is the belief that something is going to work so if somebody gives you a sugar pill, and tells you this is going to cure you, this will make this ailment better. If we marry that belief, with with the environment that this is going to happen, this is a definite certainty, what scientists have found is a very often people can feel better simply through the power of belief. So when I talk about Be your own placebo, it’s really about the fact that when we live in our reality, it is mostly driven by the blueprint of our belief system. And as we get wiser, we begin to understand that nearly every single belief we hold has been made up, has been made up by someone else. And so once we appreciate that, we can choose a new set of beliefs. And when we do, that is how we become our own placebo, because we’re literally giving ourselves these belief pills to take, and that changes our reality. And so there’s a word that I share in the book, which means the opposite of paranoia. Paranoia is the belief that some people have, that the world is against them, that the world is out to get them in some way, that they’re not meant to succeed. The opposite word to paranoia is pronoia. It is the belief that the universe is conspiring in your favour, that life is working for you and not against you. And so here’s a thought for, for the listeners. Imagine, from today onwards that you saw life as working for you, and not against you. What could that do for you? So if something unexpected happened, but you worked off the belief that life is working for you, your mind is now looking for the lesson, your mind is now looking for the opportunity as a result of something unexpected. And this is how you become your own placebo and bend your reality.

Gary Crotaz 41:37
It’s so interesting. And as you tell that story, I’m imagining you in the audience in you know, you showed up to learn something from Tony Robbins, but what you learned was not what you were expecting to learn, and it changed your life.

Simon Alexander Ong 41:50
Indeed.

Gary Crotaz 41:51
And it’s very interesting. Yeah, very, very interesting. So where can people find out more about you? And where can they, where can they buy the book?

Simon Alexander Ong 41:59
Sure. So you can order the book at GetEnergizeBook.com that is Energize with a Z. It’s also available on Amazon and all good bookstores. And if you’d like to get in touch, I’m on all the major social media platforms. But the two that I am most active on are Instagram and LinkedIn. On LinkedIn, just search Simon Alexander Ong, on Instagram, my handle is @SimonAlexanderO.

Gary Crotaz 42:24
Fantastic. And the book’s available in what formats?

Simon Alexander Ong 42:28
So it is available in paperback, on ebook or audio. So whatever your preference is, you should be able to find it.

Gary Crotaz 42:38
Fantastic. And the audiobook is you, you’ve, you’ve, you’ve recorded it yourself?

Simon Alexander Ong 42:42
Definitely so you know if you want to hear my voice in your ears for nearly 10 hours, then do check out the audiobook.

Gary Crotaz 42:49
Fantastic. Thank you so much, Simon, that’s really great. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Simon it was sitting in the audience at the National Achievers’ Congress, listening to the world’s best inspirational speakers and imagining himself up there on stage. It started a 10 year journey of discovery and growth. In his new book Energize, Simon introduces you to the art and science of energy management. In a world where we are always on, Simon coaches you to work with your natural energy resources to recognise your most energised state, when to push and when to recoup, so that you can work sustainably towards your biggest goals. I’ve already got Energize on preorder, and I can’t wait to read it. Be sure to order your copy today. We’ll have a link in the show notes. Simon, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Simon Alexander Ong 43:40
Gary, thank you for having me on your show. It’s been an absolute pleasure.

Gary Crotaz 43:45
Thank you so much. This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today we’re talking with someone whose professional life was turned upside down in the pandemic. We’ll be finding out how that worked out and what they learned about themselves. Some days you just know you’re underdressed for the occasion and today is just one of those days. My guest on The Unlock Moment is DJ, producer and celebrity fashion stylist, Alexis Knox, I suggest you head straight to her Instagram and you’ll see exactly what I mean. For over a decade, Alexis has worked alongside the biggest names in popular music as an in demand international fashion stylist, working with music’s most edgy personalities including Miley Cyrus, M.I.A, Charli XCX, Little Mix, Bruno Mars, Craig David, Rita Ora, Jessie J, Grimes and more. After establishing herself as the go-to for cutting-edge fashion, Alexis is now set to establish herself as an equally in-demand DJ. Her love for all things fashion and music have seen Alexis travelled the world from Tokyo to Rome on a colourful and exuberant DJ schedule, veering from Fashion Week events and exclusive parties to underground raves. She has now signed a multi-single record deal with dance music label Perfect Havoc, and is enjoying releasing high energy house music. I’m looking forward to hearing all about Alexis’s adventures in fashion, music and life. Let’s get into it. Alexis, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Alexis Knox 2:28
Hello, hello. It’s my great pleasure to be here.

Gary Crotaz 2:32
Thank you so much for joining, and you’re dialling in from a Portacabin, you tell me!

Alexis Knox 2:37
I am in a very glamorous location. And yes, it’s a Portacabin. I was going to record this from home. But our fabulous neighbours are doing a year-long renovation it seems and today they’re repainting all their woodwork. So there was lots of like ‘vrmmms’ and I thought, Well, that’s no good is it? So I stuck my head out the window, I was like, Oi, lads! And they’re like, Er, yeah, sorry! So I thought right I know, I’m going to come to the boyfriend’s office. And he is a builder. So his office is a Portacabin, but I have to say so it’s very nice, I’m very impressed. There’s a kitchen and a loo, and it’s all very clean. He’s a good boy!

Gary Crotaz 3:17
It says suits your style. I love it. So start out with telling us a little bit about what you were like growing up and where this incredible fashion and music persona came from.

Alexis Knox 3:29
It’s so funny when people use the word persona, because when, there’s no like, switch it on, switch it off, I’m working or I’m not, you know, and like… my name, Alexis Knox, people always say to me, Oh is that a stage name. And I’m like, No, my mom just, well no, it’s my name, it’s just like a name, you know. And so I don’t know, because I’ve always had a bit of a razzmatazz name from day one, it embodied this, this persona that was just, has become who I am. I’ve always been quite eccentric and had a natural flair for performance, and really understood clothes and style and how I wanted to present myself from day one, from day one. So yeah, growing up in Oxfordshire, and just wanting to entertain and try and look fabulous while I was doing it, really.

Gary Crotaz 4:22
So what, what kind of, what kind of child were you? When you’re at school and growing up, what kind of things did you do?

Alexis Knox 4:27
I was very loud, proud, happy, always trying to get involved, singing, dancing, performing. I was also very political. I really had a ‘power to the students’, ‘power to the kids’ kind of mentality and I think I’ve got a mother who herself is a very powerful, strong woman and she’s always raised me to speak up if I wasn’t comfortable with something. If there was something a teacher or another adult was doing, you know, it was totally okay for me to voice it and most importantly explain why first and foremost. So it was never really in a bratty, I don’t wanna do this! I always had to be eloquent. So yeah, so that kind of made me quite political and very involved at school. So when I left at 16, and I moved to Oxford College of Further Education, within a month, I was running for President of the Student Union. And I got that. And then my first job I did was I put on a big rave. And then I created a cheerleading team so I could become head cheerleader and perform, and yeah, and just walk around in my fabulous outfits! So yeah, and then I graduated and then moved to London. Yeah, pretty much just been the same.

Gary Crotaz 5:40
And what were your, what were your music influences when you were growing up?

Alexis Knox 5:43
Oh, everything. I was really lucky. My mum played a lot of music in the house. So it was very, very diverse, from dance music, to like Bob Marley, Michael Jackson, a lot of big icons, very upbeat, very happy sounds. So that was definitely, it was definitely very upbeat and happy. And I think that has been part and parcel of just the way I roll. You know, it’s great, because I’ve never been asked this question. So when you’re, you know, when you’re talking and you’re like, realising, some things you answer in auto-pilot, and then other times, you’re like, oh, my gosh, what was my soundtrack? What does that mean? How does that translate? And yeah, no, it was always upbeat, happy, lively, and very, a lot of icons. I would say like Madonna and yeah, Michael Jackson, very, very pop, but very cool at the same time.

Gary Crotaz 6:37
I was reflecting on this yesterday, actually, because I was, I couldn’t sleep and I was watching you know, those late night things where they they play like, you know, the, the music album of one of the years in the 80s or something like that?

Alexis Knox 6:50
Yes.

Gary Crotaz 6:51
And you work out which one was your year? For me, it was like 1988. And they’re playing like, Now, whichever it was, you know Now 12 or something, in 1988. And I was like, I know every single one of these songs, and I listened to it over and over again, and I’m not sure I was doing that in 1986 and I’m not sure I was doing it in 1990. But there was just this window of time where, where, you know, you have these sort of deep influences around, around music. And for you was it music and fashion or one or the other when you, when you were growing up?

Alexis Knox 7:20
The word fashion I actually don’t really resonate, for me it’s always, everything is about being expression. So I think it just was natural I landed in a world of style and music and working with pop icons who were very expressionate a bit like a Bruno Mars or a Miley Cyrus, people who really communicated through the aesthetic. So I was never really one for trends, I have to shout out my friend Alexia, who was my junior school best friend. And at the age of eight, she was the person who introduced me to the concept of fashion, I didn’t really know about trends, I just knew how I wanted to look, how I didn’t want to look, and what that meant. So to, to perceive that something might be out of fashion or out of trend was like, so mind blowing, which added a whole new level to it, which was very exciting, because it meant then, I guess, my eye was then on the lookout for the newest thing, or the emerging thing. And I always like to be why just by nature, always sort of ahead of something, or yeah I’m just very excited and excitable. So if I catch a sniff of something, be it you know, a new genre of music or a fashion trend, I’m like, yes, let’s consume it fully. So fashion, for me and trends, no it’s about style and it’s about expressing yourself 100%.

Gary Crotaz 8:43
And could you describe your personal sense of style? Does that have a sort of way of describing it?

Alexis Knox 8:50
Whenever I work with a client, I always say, we go for coffee, and we chat. And we just have a normal chat like you were getting to know a new neighbour, and I’m really just sizing them up and finding out like who they are. And then you find out what they want to communicate to other people, you know, because all of us are very multi-dimensional, and we have loads of sides to us. So for example, I’m sat in a Portacabin right now and I’m a girlfriend and I live in Surrey and I’m very close to my family and I have a very homely energy to me, but that’s not the part of me that I want to communicate. You know, so even though I’m in like girlfriend, Surrey mode, I’m sat here in a, a diamanté tracksuit, and I’ve got a cap saying Baby Girl on it. So, it’s really what you’re choosing to communicate and express. So for me, it’s usually like, colourful or flashy or fun, but also very practical. And there’s a lot of trainers or sportswear but it always is, looks like I’ve made an effort but it’s actually very comfortable. So it’s comfortable and practical, but kind of zhuzhy.

Gary Crotaz 9:56
I love that and there’s something about the message you’re communicating that I think is really powerful that, you’re thinking about not just, I like what this looks like, but it’s there for a reason, you know, and when you’re working with people it’s there for a reason to do, to do something for them.

Alexis Knox 10:11
100%. You know, it’s in our human nature to look ahead and assess and judge immediately you know it’s there to protect yourself. You know, if you see someone coming, you want to know if they’re a threat or a friend, you know. And what we don’t realise is that we are reading so many subliminal messages in the things that we’re choosing to present. Be it our hair, our choice of trainers, they all means something, different things to different people. So for example, I’ve, I’ve had clients, they’ve come to meet me and they, they’ve decided to walk there. So top half of them, they’ve got a nice, sort of, they’ve made an effort, nice shirt and, or nice smart t-shirt and jeans. And then they’ve got what they call, Oh, these are just my running trainers. Of course, these are what I just put on to walk to see you, and they’re muddy, and they’re gross. And I’m thinking, that’s a massive, massive disconnect to me, like you’re presentable up top. And then down below, it’s like, What’s going on here? You look like you’ve been doing the gardening! And, but to them, it’s like, oh no, but they’re just my trainers. But what you have to realise that what something might mean to you, you might not be communicating that same thing outward. So that’s why a professional like me is helpful to come along and go, you might not realise but by choosing to do this or wear this, this is what you’re saying to someone who hasn’t had the benefit of knowing your backstory.

Gary Crotaz 11:29
And how did you go from a 16 year old, you know, joining College in Oxford and, and cheerleading, to working with the kind of people that you’ve worked with over the years? What was the beginning of that transition? Where did that all start?

Alexis Knox 11:45
So I’ve been so blessed that I’ve, I’ve got amazing friends and family and I chose to move to London. And so I put the feelers out. And I said, Look, I don’t know what I want to do. I want to do something cool and exciting. I know, I feel I’ve got a lot to give. Does anybody know anyone who might present me with an opportunity to do some work experience, just anything, anyone? My friend Lucy introduced me to her sister-in-law’s friend who was working for a magazine. That was one of my first work experiences. It doesn’t exist anymore. It was a magazine called More. But it was part of the big publishing group called emap. So I was going to this big, exciting building full of magazines, and… It was a bit you know, Devil Wears Prada, to be honest. And it was very exciting. And I had randomly come to London on a night out, met a boy, gone back for a house party, befriended his friends, and then moved in with all his friends a month later. So I was living in East London, with a flat full of skater boys. It was like me and seven skater boys. And I was like, Show me where to go, let’s go out. And they took me out, and it was amazing. But it wasn’t really the right scene for me. And an old uni friend reached out and said, Look, I’m in London, too. And they’d just come out and they said, Look, there’s this gay night. I really want to go, would you come with me? I’ve got no one to go with. And I was like, Ooh, a gay night, I love it! In Oxford, I had, I didn’t have one gay friend, a crying shame. And so when they offered to go to a gay club, I was like, Yes, off we go. That night changed my life. That night I met, oh my gosh, so many of my now best friends who 16 years later, I’m still so in contact with. And that was it. I found my community, that LGBTQ+ community was where I was at. And back then the term queer and… it didn’t exist. So it was like, no-one really knew what to call this world of like, gay, fashion, showbiz, colourful, it was just magical. It was like 2007, and social media was just bubbling. So everyone was very, still, in the moment, in real life, we all relied on a, you know, party photographer to take our picture. And then we’d go to the website, and we’d sit you know the next day, and we’d put it on our Myspaces, and it was magical and beautiful. So I was in this whirlwind of a really exciting lifestyle. I was going out getting work experiences, meeting new people, networking, and I really went in, it wasn’t like a couple of days a week, it was like, I lived this life seven days a week, 24/7. So it was inevitable that it was just going to happen. And I was dressing up and going out and people were presuming I was a stylist. So I thought, Ooh okay, this kind of media, fashion, but I love parties. And yeah, it’s, and that’s why it’s like people tell me you got a lot of, you know, different jobs. And I’m like, well, not really, the synergy between them all completely makes sense when you, when you get my lifestyle. It’s just fun, fashion, party, expression, music really.

Gary Crotaz 14:50
And did you ever have a moment where you had sort of imposter syndrome that, Maybe I can’t do this? Or did you feel confident that you could embody that thing that they’ve thought you were?

Alexis Knox 15:02
I’m one of those that, literally since the day they were born, is like, I’m a star. Ha ha! I’ve always been like, I’m a star. And I’m, this is really, I should probably, this is oversharing. Sorry mum, but the first time I was drunk, I was a bit like mwaah. And my friends were like shaking me and being like, Come on!, trying to get me to talk. And they were like, tell me your name. And I wasn’t a fan of Queen or anything and I didn’t even know who this person was. But in my, in my delusional state I went, I’m Freddie Mercury! These girls are like, these schoolgirls like, Who is Freddie Mercury? Why Freddie Mercury? And I was like, Because I’m a star! So I think, you know, imposter syndrome, kind of, no, but yes, because I’m human. And people say to you, Oh my god, are you nervous? Are you excited? I’m like, I don’t get nervous. But I don’t get excited. I get apprehensive. I’m competent, the fact that I know I’m prepared. I can take whatever can come my way. But I’m very ready for things to be going wrong, you know, growing up, amazing family, but definitely some very challenging family times. And I think when you have that growing up, you learn to be light on your feet, you learn to read people, you learn to recognise social situations you’re in. And it does bless you, even though it’s, you know, not fun at the time, the skillset it gives you is that when you go into an environment, you don’t realise how much you’re assessing it or reading it. And maybe that’s why my approach to clothes is the same. I don’t just see a jumper, I see, I see, Oh what does that mean? Or what could that lead to? Probably because of situations I’ve been in growing up, you know. That’s the thing, it’s… People say, Oh, is, are people bitchy in fashion? And it’s like, or, you know, Is their music intimidating? I’m like, Well no people in life are, and it, it all, it all really just blurs into one. So I think that’s my, been my general experience, that imposter syndrome, no, because I take on these challenges, just like I would being scared going on a plane alone for the first time, for example.

Gary Crotaz 17:20
Behind the camera, or in front of the camera? Some people, they love being behind the camera and are a bit petrified of being in front of it, some people love being in front of it and have no interest in being behind it. But actually, in some of the roles that you’ve played, some of the things you’ve done, you’re, you’re both, you know you’re supporting somebody as their stylist, but you’re also yourself on the red carpet, you’re, you know, you’re presenting yourself as a, you know, as an image as well. So how do you feel about behind or in front of the camera?

Alexis Knox 17:48
I’m 100% 50/50, 100%, I always have been and I think I always will be. I’m clearly a strong-minded person who likes to communicate and knows what she wants and knows how she sees it. I like, I bumped into a makeup artist I hadn’t worked with for about 10 years. And she was like, I loved working with you. We always created beautiful imagery, but she said I would just turn up on the day. And I’d expect to be told, This is what we’re doing today. And it would be, it would be stunning and amazing. But you were large and in charge, you know. So even when I’m in camera, or in front of camera, obviously I’m respectful to those who are in positions of authority. And you never, ever stop learning. You never know anything. There’s never any end goal, it’s a journey. So I love it when I am in front of the camera to shut up and listen, and learn. And then, and then put my two pennies in when I can!

Gary Crotaz 18:49
I love it. So you know, the pandemic kicked off in early 2020. So when you think back to that year before the pandemic really, you know, started off, what are the things that you, that, that you remember as the big highlights of that sort of year, 18 months leading into the pandemic? What were the kinds of things that you were, you were doing? What did your life look like before that all kicked off?

Alexis Knox 19:14
My life was wild! So I was living in this insane eighth storey tower flat that used to be Harry Styles’s flat. I had like a dressing room and a cinema room and bar room and it was like, it was like a princess palace and I was DJing and flying here, there, everywhere. I’d be like in Tokyo or Milan or Amsterdam. And, you know, Craig David was like my full-time styling client. So I was wherever he needed me to be. I had like assistants coming in and out every day. I worked from home at that point. And it was fun. It was exciting. I was going out to events and, I mean don’t get me wrong, it was exhausting, but because it was so fun, you’re in the adrenaline of it, you know. But I was definitely in a place where I had been in this world at that pace for about 10, 12 years. And I had definitely learned that crazy high-adrenaline lifestyle I knew wasn’t long term because I’d already experienced the consequences. I was Creative Director and Editor of a music magazine called Notion and we relaunched, it was going well. We’d launched it digitally, as well as in print. We had outsold Vogue digitally one month, we had beaten NME, we were number one in iTunes downloads, it was going so well, flying here, there, everywhere. Working with Miley Cyrus, and it’s hard work. As much as I’m making it sound glamorous and fabulous, working as a fashion stylist is very physical. You know, you can imagine just one day shopping and you’ve got your bags, and you’re knackered, all that thinking and walking. It’s like that times 10. And I was like, one of these people, was like, Oh, my neck, my back, my shoulders. Everything’s aching. I’ll go for a massage. Oh, I’ll put some heat packs on, and never took it seriously. And then one day I woke up and I couldn’t move my arms. I was like a Dalek, my little arms could only move from the elbow! So I was like a T Rex or a Dalek, literally, my arms could only come out of the front of me. Did I even take that seriously? I was like, You know what, I need to do a course of yoga. That’s what I need! Carry on! My mum was like, You’re mental, we’re going to a consultant now. And he said to me, Alexis, I’ve never met anyone over the age of 50 with what you have, and what you have usually it’s professional athletes at the end of their career. You have worn your shoulders out from work, from all the lifting, from all the physicality, from the up, down, arms in the air, everywhere. You’ve literally worn your shoulders to the bone. He was like you’re going to need two operations, but they’ve got to be like a year apart. This is going to take you a good three, four years to recover from. So I was like, Okay, so I won’t be moving to LA then, okay, let’s, let’s not do that. And, you know, my time at Notion was coming to a natural end, the relaunch had happened, the magazine had been out for a couple of years, it was going well. And I thought this is a perfect time for me to change my lifestyle. So I moved from East London, I moved to North London. And being me, I was like, luxury apartment North London and up pops this insane place. I’m like, How can I afford this? This is amazing. I go have a look around. They’re like, Did you know this was Harry Styles’s flat. And I was like, I’ll take it! So I thought right, there’s got to be some good energy in this building leftover and they’re like, Yeah, footballer Ashley Cole lived here when he met Cheryl Cole. And then I thought, Right well, this is where I need to live if I’m going to meet my Mr. Right as clearly romance is in the air around here! So moving there just represented a new chapter where I embarked on my shoulder operations, for the recovery, slowing things down, taking on less. It was still more than your average, but for me it was definitely a pace of life where I could make dating my part time job to find my other half, which I did! I gave up all the dating apps, because I was like, This isn’t working. It was a disaster. We could do a whole podcast on my dating life. I was like, this is just not going to work. So I did, I deleted the dating apps. And a week later, I got asked to go on a blind date. And I was like, Well, hey, I’ve never been asked to do that before. Let’s do this. And nearly four years later, that’s my Mr. Right. So yeah, and I’m living it up in a Portacabin!

Gary Crotaz 23:53
And it’s interesting because I, when, when you’re talking through those things, I often talk to people about the split between the things you need-need, the things that you want, and the things you’ll compromise to get it. And often I find that what people think they need is a longer list than what they really need. And it sounds as though even at that stage going from East London to North London, you’re starting to reprioritise what, what your need really is?

Alexis Knox 24:23
100%. 100%. I mean, I make it sound all fun and games and jovial but there were some really hard, dark times. When I moved to London, I hit the floor running and it was all about success, focus, live the dream, hard and fast. Did I have fun? Hell yes. Did I work like a machine? Yes. Growing up, success, ambition, what is your five year plan? What is your six month plan? What’s your next stage? What’s your next accomplishment? Where are you going? Where are you moving forward? That was like a definition, very much. That was very much the language. I have a sister and she owns a hair business. And she was exactly the same. It was like, next thing, next thing, next thing, and then you find yourself, you’re like, Am I an adrenaline junkie? Is this my adrenaline? Is work success? Go, go, go. And that’s all well and good. But when you realise, Oh, I haven’t actually had a holiday in eight years, which means just stopping for a period of time longer than three days. You know, it wasn’t about jetting off somewhere because I was doing that, it was the fact that I hadn’t stopped. And when was the last time I’d actually physically seen my family or been at a family event? And how many things were I cutting short or giving the bare minimum? Like a friend’s wedding? You know, I missed the ceremony because I was with Miley Cyrus at Wembley, which is the dream, but at the same time, this is one of my best friend’s weddings. That’s a dream. That’s her dream, our dream, a once in a lifetime dream. You know, my priorities were really, I won’t say wrong, but I will say different I would say to the average, and that went hand-in-hand with a financial, like work success, but a lifestyle success, no! I definitely had toxic friendships. I was never in a healthy, stable, joyful, content partnership, you know. Everything was adrenaline, or a drama or this or that. I remember I got asked to do a Diesel, the clothing brand, one of their campaigns, and one of the filming days fell on the same day as my granddad’s funeral. And I rang my mum and I said, I’m sorry, I can’t come to the funeral. I’ve got to work. And, and everyone in my world was so supportive, and they got it, like, that was who I was. And I hung up the phone and it was my housemate who, who didn’t really know me, so for them, me having that sentence was just wild! Like, you’re not going to go… My granddad was like my Dad, can I just say, he was like, my number one, the big man, you know, and they were like, I know how much you’ve spoken about him, you’re not going to go, like, I’m not gonna let you do that. And I went, I went to the funeral. And I thank, you know, I well up thinking about it. I’m like, Thank God, I did. But as if I was that person who thought it okay. And it’s so easy to get in a whirlwind of ambition and adrenaline where your priorities are so out of whack. Because you don’t necessarily even know any difference until hindsight, or something happens, that just makes you stop, the universe will strike you down and make you take stock of these values, health, home, family, priorities, you know, relationships that aren’t toxic, toxic and hectic. And so, yeah, having to slow down, it was like a very slow realisation. But the penny definitely didn’t drop and I did not have that moment until lockdown struck.

Gary Crotaz 28:18
I was going to say, because, you know, we’re here on the podcast, one of the things that, that we’re digging into is this idea of this Unlock Moment, the moment of real, a flash of clarity, and it sounds as though leading up to that, that you know, there’s some things starting to twig, there’s some things starting to land, some experiences you’re having where you’re starting to think, this isn’t quite, you know, this is how it’s been. But this isn’t how I want it to be, necessarily, in certain sort of key moments. So, so bring me into that moment where you had this sort of real clarity, you know, as the lockdown hit.

Alexis Knox 28:59
You’re so right there were, like, micro-realisations happening along the way, things weren’t feeling right, or things weren’t adding up, things weren’t panning out. People were leaving my life. And I was like, sad at the time then I look back and I went, Oh, yeah, but they only ever caused me drama. Like, that was always a nightmare and, and as things shrink down, you start to see the scale of things. It’s when you’ve got so much, so much texture, it’s a blur. And when things get less and less and less, everything gets a bit louder. It’s ironic, you know, in the, in the silence of being a bit alone, and I was realising that the pace of London wasn’t going to make sense forever. I’m, it’s in my ambition to have children. And for me, it’s just not what I wanted to do, living in a very built-up city environment. So I always saw in my future like living somewhere quieter and I’ve been in my relationship for a couple of years. We were so happy, I’ve met, I’ve been with my partner now for yeah about 18 months at this point. And things were simple. You know, you can enter relationships or a career and you get caught up in the adrenaline, in the drama of this, that and, oh my God, lalala. And then when you actually go into a new job or a new relationship or living someone new, and you’re like, hold on, this is, this is really easy. This is really simple. This is fulfilling and joyful. I’m not chasing highs and, and subsequently having crashes. This is just nice and easy. And I am calm. And you’re like, Whoa, okay, this is clearly making sense. So I started dropping the idea of maybe we should live together and we set the date in 2019. It was getting to the end of the year. And I was like, How about end of March 2020?

Gary Crotaz 30:54
Great date!

Alexis Knox 30:55
22nd of March 2020. That feels like a day that my life is gonna change! I just was like something my blood said, My world is going to change and I’m going to need to be living in Surrey that day! Of course, it was the day before lockdown. So first day of lockdown, I’m not in London. I’m not in Harry Styles’s old flat for sure. I’m in a lad pad, a one bed lad pads in Surrey. I, now I’m getting messages where every single job, every single booking is cancelling. There is nothing in my diary. It’s me, the dog, and a chaotic lad pad in Surrey. The boyfriend’s off working. And I’m like, Wow, for the first time, I feel like, in my life, I’m alone with nothing in the foreseeable future to happen to me, this is down to me to figure this out.

Gary Crotaz 31:58
And before then, how far ahead would you have your schedule worked out? What’s your runway ahead of you of bookings?

Alexis Knox 32:08
Like 18 months? Well, yeah.

Gary Crotaz 32:11
So you’ve gone from this intense, really intense calendar, to nothing.

Alexis Knox 32:16
Literally, you know, I, first day of lockdown I thought in a week’s time, I was flying to Amsterdam. And I’m like, well, that’s not happening. You know, Craig David, you know, he’s in the same situation, my client, and he was like, you know, no one is doing live shows, you know, everyone is just scared and pausing.

Gary Crotaz 32:41
And how did you feel?

Alexis Knox 32:44
God, it was really hard. Because I was so aware of the privilege situation I was in. Healthy, safe, in a home with a loved one, in a beautiful environment. The privilege was real. But you can’t but help have moments where you still think your whole world is ending. When you’ve lived a lifestyle which is so interlinked with your self-expression, your sense of self, your identity, when you don’t have those things happening in your world, you don’t have those go-tos, it’s suddenly like, Well, who am I? What am I made of? What? What are the things that are fundamentally important to me? And like I say, you know, I am quite spiritual and it is like, sometimes the universe just goes, Well, you didn’t, you didn’t get the memo. So we’re gonna just give you the message, all in one, you know, and here you go, hard and fast, you’re gonna learn his lesson. And it was really like, I need to stop and take stock to full effect of what really, really matters. And it didn’t happen overnight. I tell you, it literally really only, it was a process. It was a good 18-month process, because obviously life started creeping back in for people, for me, for everyone, but then it’s taken away. So everything you felt you had learned and then was slowly getting back into it, and then it stopped again. And then you’re panicked and you’re thinking, God, is this ever? Are we ever going to go back to normal, you know, and we’ve talked about this new normal and what life could be, and conspiracy theories, and the internet and all these crazy wild imaginings of this dystopian world we’re about to live in, and you’re in limbo, and not having for the first time in my life, a six-month, three-year plan was, well, it, I didn’t know how to not have that.

Gary Crotaz 34:50
And what did you learn about yourself in that time where you didn’t have all of these things that were just going on, carrying you on that wave, and suddenly you’re sitting, kind of, in a conversation with yourself for the first time in years and years and years. And having that sort of time and space for some, some people I’ve talked to, that was a very enlightening time and a very positive time because they had the opportunity to stop and think, and for the people it was quite terrifying, precisely because they had to face into stuff that they hadn’t faced into before and all of that.

Alexis Knox 35:28
The lockdown for me was definitely a lot of polar opposites, of realising my privilege and how I wasn’t ill. And I hadn’t had any loved ones being ill or passed away, and I was safe. But at the same time, the things that I had defined myself by were all gone. And it was definitely, I couldn’t look forward like I had always done, my whole life was future plans. Where I was going, my career, and for the first time, I actually stopped and looked backwards, and tried to start to make sense of where I felt like things have gone wrong. I’ve been on television, I’ve been on radio, I’ve flown around. But I’d still not necessarily been in the most functioning relationships. I had not been in good health. I’d had home lives that were really turbulent, like things… work and superficial lifestyle were really successful. And then internally, it was just chaotic. And for the first time, I was in so much peace and calm externally. And then this contradiction entirely of wanting to get everything back, wanting to jet off to Ibiza, and play in drag queen clubs, but then at the same time being like, Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on. If I want to embark on that, again, I think I need to find a new way to approach this, I think I need a foundation that I didn’t have before. I realised that what I had been building before was only from the ground up. It was success, work, ambition, external image, and I really had never built anything from the ground down. Is this because I was dating a builder? Maybe I’m thinking about this, who knows?! But properly, no, I’m realising, sat in a Portacabin, like, oh, yeah, now I understand foundations! But you know, it’s true! If you need to be having a career success, I realised that you have to have the emotional, family, health, stability, foundation, successful first, first and foremost, if you don’t have a home life, that you feel safe, and balanced, and has order and structure, you, you cannot build upon that. You can, but it’s like a house of cards, it will fall down. And that’s definitely how I look back on my past successes in that period of time, I had built a house of cards.

Gary Crotaz 38:15
And I think when you were describing that time, leading into the pandemic, it sounds that you’re describing a few of these cards starting to fall over a bit, you know, your health was, you know, not the best and you’re just conscious of the number of years that you’d been doing that 24/7 lifestyle and so on. So I’m not sure you’d, you’d hit the buffers, but you know, you were starting to be mindful of that when you were talking about those little triggers that you were noticing.

Alexis Knox 38:43
Definitely, it was like I was a Jenga tower. And the universe was like slowly sliding out blocks, being like, We don’t think this is the right structure for you, we’re gonna start revealing pieces that really are not working and, and started to be removed, you know? And then yeah, eventually it sort of physically collapses and then emotionally it collapses. It’s, it’s, to be forced to stop working when that is who you are and what you do. Is, yeah, it messes with your head, for sure.

Gary Crotaz 39:18
I mean, I know that you’ve got a copy of The IDEA Mindset book and in the book I pick up on a widely used framework which is around the emotional journey of change. And this idea that sometimes to get to a more positive place in the medium term or the longer term, it’s almost inevitable that you’ll probably get through a dip first. Because, you know, as you’re describing, that’s the first experience of lockdown for you in terms of the, you know, the impact on your business and your life, was 18 months of, of, of clarity and bookings ahead, of knowing what you’re going to do, and all the things that you’ve built up all those years, disappears, and you’ve just got this void to sort of drop into so, you know, did you feel yourself going through a dip in that, you know, an emotional dip in the earlier stages of the pandemic?

Alexis Knox 40:16
Oh my God, were there tears? Yes! Were there tantrums? Yes! It was like, a battle, you have those moments, you have that realisation. And in one day, you’re like, Yes, I’ve got this clarity, I realise. And then the next day, you wake up and maybe your ego’s coming into play? And you’re like, No, but you know, Damn you, I was this, I’m gonna be this and I don’t need this. And, and you, it’s like a battle within you of like, these two identities. And it’s like, am I the horse? Or am I the horse rider? Which one am I? I don’t know. And you realise you’re kind of both, you really are, you’re just one unit, you have this, like, everyone has a sense of ego, which drives you forward and really values the external. And then you have that maybe be it your soul, or your sense of identity, which is the internal, fundamental knowing. I fundamentally knew it was going to be okay. And everything was fine. And I was blessed. And it would be good. But the fear and the externals, and yeah, it was really, I mean, God bless my partner, he was so calm throughout it, and just a great listener, and I’m very, what I needed, like, what can we do? What do we need to do? What can we take control of, what problems can we fix, because that’s how I roll, I’m a, I’m a problem fixer. And when problems that, say your ego is looking at, are global, it’s very hard to then be like, realising that there are smaller variations and controllables in your day-to-day which can stabilise you. And that’s where I started to be like, right, Well, I need a new routine, I need new goals, I need to shrink everything down. And I began to just try and live everything week-to-week. My life, I still, I don’t believe that we can necessarily fundamentally change who we have, are born to be or have been groomed to be through our programming and parenting, or life experience. But you can shift or reapply that mentality. So for me being someone who is goal-based and structure-based, if I could shrink that down to instead of 18 months, one week, I could get control over something which was happening to everyone in the world, which was so hard to feel, to not feel like a victim and sometimes, to be frank, feel sorry for yourself, which was never something I really had experienced. And I was like, What is this coming out of me? You know, Why do I feel sorry for myself? I have zero reason. You know, and I remember having these conversations with my friends, but I felt so guilty for the emotions I was feeling and they were like, Yeah, but you’re human, you know, like, we all have to feel these things, but we just got to get it in some kind of contextualisation and format that you recognise, and you can programme, so yeah, living life from week to week definitely gave me an ability to sort of get control. I think anxiety from my experience will, you know, rear its ugly head when you feel out of control, when you feel threatened by a situation, where you don’t know an answer, or you don’t know the values or the quantity of a situation and you feel overwhelmed and consumed. And there were times I felt so anxious. I thought no I’m not having this. I’m not letting anxiety take over me, I am, that is one thing I was like, Nah, pardon my French, I’ll make anxiety my b*tch. This is, no I’m not, you know, I’m not making that happen. So I definitely turned to Audible books and self development and really going inside because I couldn’t really do tons externally. Everybody was doing, you know, like, Oh, do online and do DJ sets and dadadah and I’m just not that person to be honest. I’m an in real world, energy, I need people, you know, people are my batteries. And so yes, I could, I could do it. And I love Insta stories and stuff, it, it didn’t give me the fuel I really needed so I thought do you know what Alexis, just go inside and just start from scratch.

Gary Crotaz 44:37
There’s something very powerful about the way you tell the story of before the pandemic and then during the pandemic in terms of your, your conversation with self because you’re describing, you know, from a young age being this very confident, outgoing, bold kid, you know, and then coming through and that whole personality landing very soundly in, in the world that you’ve worked in. But at some point, sort of not listening to yourself, not listening to your body and all of that, you know, it starts to sort of fall over, your house of cards. And then, you know, as you’ve gone through the emotional journey of change actually in the, in the pandemic, it’s being, you know, you’ve still got that boldness and positivity about the future, and you know, you’re going to come through and you’re going to achieve your, your goals, but you’re much more mindful of the journey you’re going through, you’re giving yourself more time, you’re listening to your emotions, and being able to name them. And I, you know, I work with a lot of people who struggle with the idea that they’re feeling guilt, or they’re feeling bitterness, or they’re feeling anger, when actually it’s just what you feel when you’re going through that kind of journey. And it’s normal. And if you push against it, and refuse to believe that it’s there, then all you’re doing is you’re pushing yourself back into that world of pretending that it’s not happening. And I know a lot of people tune in to Susan Davis’s work on emotional agility and Brene Brown’s work where you know, where you’re really starting to become much more cognisant of the emotions that you experience. And, and I love how you talk about the building of foundations. So, you know, when you reflect now and you think, you know, what foundations do you feel you’ve built, that you didn’t have, on the 22nd of March 2020?

Alexis Knox 46:29
Yeah, I think, Wow, that’s a good question, like what, what has created. Understanding the difference between happy, pleasure, being happy, and pleasure, versus joy and fulfilment. I feel I live a fulfilled, joyful existence, which comes, has to come from within happy as you know, it’s a classic line for anyone who is into self-development. Happiness is internal, it’s not external. And if you give your power to the external, you’re screwed because you’re giving away the ability of your own feelings to external sources. And I’m, I like to be on top, I like to be large and in charge! And I realised, Wow, I’m not even going to let a global pandemic kind of stop me being in charge of my emotions. It did a really good job. It really came for me and it was a journey and a battle. But I’ve got to a position where I’m like, Look, I need to be as happy recording in a Portacabin as I am in a central London flashy hotel. There’s no difference between my little Starbucks on Deliveroo or a glass of champagne. And I think it’s also realising you know, everyone has ego, everyone is superficial to some degree like, Okay, what little joys then will help a situation? You know, as soon as I got to the Portacabin, I was like, babe, we got to get a Starbucks in. Because that’s like, my little like, grounding, like my little thing. And you know, and I recognise that and I’m okay with that, you know, I’m also okay with the fact that if there’s nowhere I can get an iced latte, the world is not going to end. Prior to, prior, in the old days if I couldn’t get a chai tea latte in the morning. Oh, my God, nightmare! What a diva! But now it’s like, you know, no. So it is okay to have a bit of ego, it’s okay to have superficial materialistic things you need. But you need to have a coping mechanism for when you can’t have those, you can’t just crumble. It’s not how the world works, well we don’t even know how the world works. So all we can do is really just take charge of our internals, in this crazy world we’re in these days.

Gary Crotaz 48:54
And I think that’s a really important message, this idea that one of the things that shifted is the level of certainty that we have about the future. So, you know, even as we come out of the pandemic, what does the music world look like, you know, for the, for the future, we don’t really know, you know, it, whereas, pre-pandemic, you could kind of predict it to some extent, a year, two years, three years in advance, you know, you were going to get the sort of continuous development and growth, whatever, but, but suddenly, and this is the same in so many industries. There are these really sort of 90 degree shifts in how things are happening, and some things will never be the same again, and we don’t yet know quite what they’re going to be. So, so as you say, you know, learning to cope in a world of uncertainty I think is a really powerful thing and something that a lot of people are not very used to doing, because, because of the routine that they’ve, they’ve lived before. It’s, it’s, it’s really interesting to hear that journey and something I wanted to ask specifically was, I know I talk to a lot of people where they feel as though grounding, and finding foundations, and moving from the city into the country and so on feels like slowing down and paring back on your level of ambition. Do you feel that this sort of mindset shift that you’ve been through in the pandemic has, has, reflects a reduction in your ambition or not?

Alexis Knox 50:23
I was so scared of feeling less ambitious, not being in it, not being in London, being somewhere where the pace is slower. So I actually thought, you know what, I need to again take control of this thought process and test it. So I rented a little bedroom off my sister who lives in East London for two months and I, and it was available, she let me have it for like a sister rate. Thank you, Katie Knox, shout to you! And I was like, right, I have a bedroom in East London which I can stay in, I’ll live in, I went and bought everything and kitted it out, it was gorgeous. It was there for two months. Didn’t stay in it once, didn’t even make the bed! I bought all the linen, I didn’t even put it on the duvet. I did not stay there once, because every time that there was the option to go back to that bedroom in East London by myself, which effectively was my life before I moved in with my partner in Surrey, or go back to what was my new home with my partner and my dog, which was somewhere really beautiful, I would always make that extra little trek to go somewhere where I felt safe and comfortable and where I’d open the front door, and there’d be at least, you know, a little hairy four-legged creature welcoming me, you know. And, and sometimes in life, we get into a position because our subconscious decisions have taken us there. And we don’t even realise, like I, me moving to London and moving to the centre of Shoreditch and living in a house with eight boys. I thought that was just the way life kind of made it happen for me, but they were all decisions I was making without realising it. I’m putting myself in these positions because of what I wanted and liked. So being somewhere where I didn’t necessarily have that people and that texture, I didn’t even know, I didn’t even know that was something I needed and wanted. I didn’t realise that people were so important to me on a daily basis. Going from having a system, I was working from home, but I was having assistants coming in and out and housemates and noise and colour and texture, to waking up in the morning, being alone, going to my desk in the house and just sort of trying to Zoom or just work alone, I was getting really depressed. And I didn’t understand why and I thought the problem was just being not in London. I realised the problem was I wasn’t with people. So now I’m curating a world where, from, from the second I leave the house, I’ve got people and texture. And, Hi how you do, all those things I took for granted that I didn’t know I need, because I’ve kind of accidentally created a world where I took them for granted. And then when it’s sort of taken away, and you really have to recreate it, you think, Oh god, I really value, I really value so many things I took for granted. And you don’t think you take things for granted. You really don’t. You think yeah, I’m really grateful for my life. Yeah, be grateful and practice gratefulness. But there’s still like, to fundamentally, Oh, my God, with your whole heart appreciate and value something is very, very, very different. And often you have to have lost it.

Gary Crotaz 53:36
If you had to pick just one word, describe something that you have now that you didn’t have before, what word would you pick?

Alexis Knox 53:48
Security. Yeah, security, in the knowledge that, internally, I have all the tools I need to take on anything or anyone. And if I don’t have it, there’s so many resources out there to find it, be it other people like yourself to talk to or get guidance from the internet, friends. We actually all have everything we really need at our fingertips. We’re in the most privileged point in history. There’s so much to slag off about the world today, but really, anything you want to be or do. There’s really no reason why you can’t. We are given everything in a little little palm pad to take on the world or even just take on any situation we find ourselves in.

Gary Crotaz 54:37
I love it, and I love how you’re able to take all that experience over the last couple of years and put it together in really quite a deep self reflection on the journey you’ve, you’ve been through. So you know, we sit in the first half of 2022 and you’re, you’re looking to the year coming up. What are the things that are, that are coming up for you? What are your plans is as we gradually emerge from, from this pandemic?

Alexis Knox 55:01
Very excitedly I just had a single out. It’s called Think About It, it’s with a singer called Mila Falls, she’s amazing. I’ve just dropped a remix for it. It’s the first time I’ve done a remix of one of my singles and it’s really like dirty and hard and it’s ready to rave, like the last two singles. First single I ever put out, lockdown happened two weeks later. Ssecond single I was like, Well, I better get a single out, we could be a lockdown forever, even though I didn’t want to, so I was in a lockdown. So this third single finally we weren’t in a lockdown! So I was like, Do you know what I’m going to do a remix of this. The single’s very dance, pop, fun, upbeat. But I’m going to do something really dirty people can rave to, because now we can! So yeah, I’ve done a VIP remix of my single Think About It. I’ve got another single in the pipeline, it’s out in a couple of months. I was in the studio yesterday working on another demo. So it’s really releasing music, live gigs, I’ve just been booked for Ibiza, I’ve just come back from Amsterdam. Yeah, and then sharing it all on my socials!

Gary Crotaz 56:03
Amazing. And it will be, I’m sure my listeners wouldn’t thank me for having Craig David, Bruno Mars and Miley Cyrus’s stylist on the show and not getting some good style tips from you! So…

Alexis Knox 56:17
I won’t be invoicing your listeners, don’t worry! You can have this one for free!

Gary Crotaz 56:22
So coming out of the pandemic, people are cautiously obviously emerging back into the world. And with the cost of living crisis, people don’t have the spare cash to go buy a whole new wardrobe. So what’s a top tip for people to style themselves on a budget as they come out back into the world?

Alexis Knox 56:36
A top tip to style yourself on a budget post-lockdown is Be Resourceful. Often what I find is, when I go to a client and we go through their wardrobe, they have more than enough! But the reason they think they don’t have anything is because there’s a lot of cr*p in there that they don’t like. So you can’t see the killer for the filler, that’s what I say! So I’m like, right, I want you to go to your wardrobe and instinctly without thinking take out 10 items that if your house was on fire, and to get out alive, you could only take your top 10 favourite items, grab 10 outfits. And you could do that so quickly. And I’m like, grab another 10. And then when you get to the point where you’re suddenly stopping and thinking about it, all these different emotions start coming into play. It’s like the relationship people have with money, we have it with our clothes. Oh no, but that was 200 pounds when I bought it. Suddenly it’s got this value, but hold on, Okay, so you spent a bit of money on it. When was the last time you wore it? Two years ago. Do you really like it? No, but it’s worth 200 pounds! Look, the value of something when it was purchased then doesn’t equate to the value of it to you now, like value and money, it’s, it’s, forget about it with clothes. It’s a, it’s really just a tool to keep you warm and express yourself, have a bit of fun with. So unless you love it, or you use it, it’s out. So before you do any purchasing you’ve got to do an edit of your wardrobe. And only then will you see the gaps of what’s really missing.

Gary Crotaz 58:15
Alexis that is, that is amazing. I’m going to go through my sock drawer straight away now with with that in mind! And where can people find out more about you?

Alexis Knox 58:24
I am on Instagram @AlexisKnox. I am sharing LOLs on my TikTok @ItsAlexisKnox, someone took Alexis Knox, didn’t get there fast enough! I think some 12 year old in America beat me. But yeah, so AlexisKnox on Instagram and ItsAlexisKnox on TikTok, they are probably your best resources.

Gary Crotaz 58:43
Fantastic. Thank you so much. And we’ll put those links in the show notes as well so people can follow up.

Alexis Knox 58:47
Oh, and don’t forget to hit up my Spotify for my music as well if you fancy a boogie. Yeah, AlexisKnox on there.

Gary Crotaz 58:53
Thank you so much. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Alexis, after a nonstop life of fashion, music and glamour that was taking a significant personal toll, suddenly the global pandemic emptied her diary, styling work and red carpet events, and saw her moving out of the heart of the bustling city into a little corner of rural Surrey. That shift reframed her priorities. And as we emerge from the pandemic has allowed her to develop a new perspective on what’s really important to her as she shapes the next exciting chapter in her life’s journey. Alexis brings this source of relentless positivity to everything she does, and I’m very excited to see where her journey takes her next. Alexis, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Alexis Knox 59:37
Thank you for having me. I’ve loved it.

Gary Crotaz 59:40
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Tony Walmsley 0:06
My family were in the crowd, they’d come over, which was wonderful. And they got to see my giant head on this giant screen and all of that kind of stuff. Anyway, we were two-nil down after about 15 minutes, then my goalkeeper gets red-carded. So I’m putting an 18 year-old on for his debut to hopefully try and save a penalty, which he doesn’t do. So they’re three-nil up after 20 minutes, and we’re down to ten men. And at that point, my massive head gets captured on this screen. And I remember, I can put myself back in that moment right now. And I can actually remember what was going through my mind which is, which is, Wow, like, a) how big are these screens? They are huge. And this could get really messy, like this… it maybe might not get worse, any worse than this. This is what I was thinking of, so 20 minutes in. Microphone in your face. Tony, its Mark Bosnich, ex-Chelsea goalkeeper. Don’t you think it’s time you resigned? That was the first question.

Gary Crotaz 1:19
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. This is an episode I’ve been looking forward to recording for a while. Tony Walmsley was one of the first names on my team sheet when I was listing the guests I wanted to convince to come on the podcast. We met last year and discovered a deep connection around the similarities between the elite sporting arenas of the football pitch and the ballroom dance floor. You’ll be surprised at how much they have in common. Tony is a performance specialist combining a multi-championship-winning football career and senior leadership advisory with the psychology of motivation to develop fast results for leaders and teams in multiple sectors. He’s worked in ccademy technical director and coach roles for some football clubs you might have heard of, including Manchester United, Sheffield United, and for the Central Coast Mariners in Australia. And he’s also had a successful career in the corporate world and now in inspiring world-class leaders who influence performance. Tony and I share very common ground in how we describe our ideal clients. He says they know they are not yet world-class but instinctively know they can be. They think about it a lot and are determined to face what’s holding them back, however hard that is, to do what it takes to reach the highest possible level. I know you’re going to learn a huge amount from this conversation. Tony, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Tony Walmsley 3:37
Gary, wow. Thank you very much. It’s, it’s absolutely my privilege to be invited on as a guest, I look forward to this conversation very much.

Gary Crotaz 3:46
Thank you so much for, for joining the team. So let’s start off with, tell us a little bit about your upbringing. What formed the person you are today? How did you first get into football? How did you first get into the corporate world?

Tony Walmsley 3:58
Yeah, I’m born in, Manchester-born, 1966 which is not a bad year for football for us Brits. And I was, was sporty, not so academic. My brother’s an Oxford scholar, my sister’s a PhD like yourself, you know they went down the academic route and both been successful in their own right and for me, it was, it was really an unknown of what I was going to do. I pursued football and cricket with, with huge enthusiasm I would say more than ambition. And it was only when I first did a coaching course at the FA that somebody pushed a button of inspiration and I think they said something along the lines of you’re, you could be really good at this if you applied yourself to it. So that moment and, and all of the experience around that where I was suddenly seeing the game through a different set of eyes and seeing that actually there’s more to it than just, just rocking up and and talking about the the team sheet on the wall before the game, that there’s there’s so much more nuance to it. And I found myself very quickly and at a young age, having an affinity with this ability to transfer information and help people to improve whatever it is that they were doing. And I think that thread has run through my whole, my whole life. So at 18 years old I was, I was a qualified coach with no idea what I might do with that. And again, no ambition really, until by chance I got an offer, an opportunity through a cricket connection, an Australian, so I played Grade cricket, a decent level of cricket. We used to get professionals over each year from Australia or the West Indies to play in that league. So it was a decent standard. And in one of my conversations with, with Roger Brown, who was a Sheffield Shield cricketer and on the fringes of the Australian National Team, he talked, he’s a Tasmanian, he talked about in his off season, he played football and I thought that meant Australian Rules Football, but he was talking about soccer. And through that connection, he, introductions were made. And at 21, I was flying off from Manchester to Tasmania to coach and manage in the second tier of Australian football, which was a thrill and exciting proposition. Really entering into the unknown with really no coaching experience, I was going to manage a men’s semi-professional football team on the other side of the world, it was quite fascinating start to my, you know where we end up having this conversation today.

Gary Crotaz 6:56
And you were 21 years old, and you’re travelling to the other side of the world?

Tony Walmsley 7:00
Yeah, and it’s interesting, you know, through the years when I’ve coached in academies, and I’ve worked with 19, 20, 21-year-olds, at a good standard, I would often reflect on who did I think could take that step? I don’t know why I would reflect on it that way, but would be asking the question, not outwardly, to myself, who would have the capacity, or the will, or the intent, or the motivation to do that? And I didn’t come across many that I thought, I thought would do that. So the way I look at that is, is just from the perspective of uniqueness and, and as I’ve matured through life, I realised that my journey is certainly unique. And I can tell stories about lots of aspects of that journey that sometimes surprised me where I’ve been, you know, you forget things and then you go, Wow, you know, did I really have dinner with Harry Redknapp under Sydney Harbour Bridge? It’s like, these things that crop up, you think, Oh, yeah, I forgot about that! That was, that was an interesting, what I learned the more I’ve worked with with people is that everybody’s got a fantastic story, that everybody’s unique. And I’m really enjoying operating in the space where bringing that uniqueness to the surface, to understand it, and optimise it, is where the biggest performance gains are. Boy, I wish I knew that at 21 when I was, when I was flying out to Tasmania. However, it went okay.

Gary Crotaz 8:35
Did you feel young then, in yourself? Or did you feel just like this is, this is the thing to do? You know, were you conscious of your relative youth?

Tony Walmsley 8:46
I was conscious of, of being younger than everybody else, in the context of what I was, what I was doing and who I was managing, that there was some sense of uniqueness. I think there’d always been a sense that I was a bit quirky growing up, but I think also in terms of life experience. So you know, from a family perspective, some things had happened where I was sort of thrust into a an almost parental role for my, for my young brother for a period of time. Where you assume a role of, of maturity before perhaps you’re ready for it, that grounds you in different ways. So I had that experience. You know, I was already taking a little bit of pain of that, of that with me, so you’ve got that to fall back on. But for me, I was always, my eyes have always been really wide open. I’ve got this enthusiasm and passion for experience. So that was what was driving, I had no idea whether I’d be any good, had no idea that I would make a career out of it, I wasn’t driven by ambition, I was confident, I was self-confident. I was, I knew I could engage people, I knew people would like me. I was fortunate that I landed in a part of the world where I was because I was a playing coach as well, I was, I was competent at the level that I fell into, so I was able to operate at or above the standard of my peers at the time. So that level of competence was, you know, I was quickly able to feel comfortable in, in the role, and, knowing how much I respect autonomy, and everybody’s not just mine, some people need more than others. I had, I was free to, free to explore this new world that I was entering into. If I think about that from a sort of psychological coaching perspective, I was super-motivated. Didn’t see it as motivation… you know, people think of motivation often, you know, that drive and you’re pursuing this, you’re pursuing with vigour, this objective, singular objective with determination – wasn’t like that, I was just purely motivated to experience this thing, whatever it was going to be. And I think that being the case, by, by nature, it produced some positive outcomes, and began a series of new experiences, other… you’re successful, the club wants to retain you, other clubs start to show an interest. And each time that happens, your, your interest is piqued again, and your experience has grown by another 12 months. So you’re getting stronger. And you’re getting fueled.

Gary Crotaz 12:05
And I’m hearing as you’re describing that, there’s something about sort of instinct and, and passion. So you’re making quite instinctive choices about, about what you love, and what you know you’re good at. But also, there’s that sort of, I hear something about the youth, in terms of, you know, you’re not held back by thinking too hard about something, you know, you’re taking an opportunity for something that’s very exciting ahead of you. And I think that comes through quite clearly. So what happened next, where did it go from there, you know, the 21 year old player coach?

Tony Walmsley 12:44
I can only say that for a long period of time, I had a lot of success. So Tasmania is quite a small place, you know, it’s the size of England with the population of Manchester. But it’s part of a much bigger country, and you don’t really know being in Tasmania, how big Australia is until you actually go there and think you can drive from Sydney to Brisbane and not, and realise that that’s going to take rather longer than you expected! But I was involved in youth development at this time, you know, three or four years into this journey I was working with, with state teams and academies and elite kids and then getting exposed to the broader and higher talents that, that were operating around Australia, and took one of those teams to an unprecedented level of success. So Tasmanian teams at national level would always typically be at the bottom along with the Northern Territory, you know, population-driven and all of that type of thing. And we finished third, in a tournament that had Harry Kewell, Mark Viduka, famous Australian players that graced the Premier League and did very well for Leeds and Liverpool and so forth. And that got me noticed and recognised, and I got the job – I was the inaugural full-time women’s coach, which is amazing. This was 1995. I was head of the Olympic Athletes Programme in New South Wales, at this stage, I’m probably 27, 28. So again, really young to be holding a position of authority at that level. And we won, you know, I was responsible for the Australian National Team players that that resided in New South Wales at that time, and also had my own academy and intensive training centre around that, where I’ve tapped into all of the, you know, the Australian Institute of Sport elite athletes services so you get to learn about, you start to get more insight into sports psychology and strength and conditioning. And at that time, the Australian Institute of Sport were pioneers in global sport, how to prepare athletes. So that was, that was fantastic. And that team then went on to be successful, we won the national championships. And it’s funny, I’m coaching a women’s team, now I’m coaching the team one step below National League, I’m doing it as a volunteer. And on the one hand, it’s amazing to see in that period, you know, the 25 years that have passed, how, how much growth there has been in the game, and yet, there’s such a long way to go in, in all of that – it’s not a conversation we really should get into today. But it’s a nice reflection to, for me to be operating at this level that I’m operating at now and recognising the great strides that have been taken, but also to acknowledge that a long time ago, I was doing some pretty serious stuff, and some some pretty good, pretty good things too, and I’ve often looked back and, because I look forward, and I’m optimistic, and I’m seeing what’s next, I rarely look back and take too much credit for it, or acknowledge for myself, you know, people many times have said, Oh fantastic, what an amazing thing that you did. And it’s like, I’d say it wasn’t bad. I’ll take that, it was quite good, it’s okay. And I’m working now, I’m coaching an Olympian, a former Australian Olympian who’s now a senior lawyer in a big organisation. So I do some, some coaching with her. And that’s, so I’ve got these, it’s almost this, this, this loop, this, this circle of my, my coaching life is right in play at the moment, which I’m, which I’m really enjoying.

Gary Crotaz 16:50
I often talk about a particular story for my own career in, in ballroom dancing, and people say, you know, what’s, what’s a piece of advice that you were given that you remember, and I always talk about somebody that I’d known for many, many years as a sort of coach and mentor, who, one day at the British Championships, called me and my wife over from the, from the side of the dance floor, and, and he said, I have a piece of advice for you. And it’s for all these things that you’re trying to achieve and travelling the world and, you know, pushing for results in competitions, he said, my advice is don’t forget to enjoy the journey on the way along, because he said he’s seen so many couples who have been so intense about trying to achieve their goals, they get to the end of their career, and they don’t really look back on any of it with, with pleasure, because it felt so intense and often frustrating at the time. And so what you’re saying here about, you know, being able to look back and reflect on something that maybe in the moment you didn’t fully appreciate what, what you were doing, but actually, with the benefit of hindsight and looking at that 25 years, it’s in context, and you can see, you know, what you were starting.

Tony Walmsley 17:57
Yeah, I agree with that. That’s a great, great way to summarise. And I think when I put myself, I’ve got an ability to put myself, because I’ve got I would say a strong feeling preference as, you know, high sensory needs, I suppose, for want of a better term. And I think that, that’s why I’m so enthusiastic about, I get a buzz out of, out of things. So it’s very easy to put myself back there, when I’m feeling a certain way with a certain memory, and go, Wow, you know, I can get goosebumps on the back of my neck because of a particular experience. And it’s very easy then to recollect what was happening at that time, sometimes the details are blurred as my memory fades, but the, the emotion of it and therefore the relevance that, that it, that it has for me. It’s something that I can latch on to. So if I’m working with somebody about a future state that they are aspiring to, then I can help them. What I’ve tried to do is help them. And it’s not easy for some people. For me, it’s relatively easy, try and help them to, to visualise what it will feel like when they get there. Not the goal itself. What will it feel like if you achieve that? And if somebody had said to me what what will it feel like if you win the National, if you’re the coach of the National Women’s champions in 1995. Somebody then asked me that maybe five years before, I think it would have filled me with a sense of excitement and a sense of Wow, perhaps even a sense of, I don’t know if that’s possible. And that wouldn’t be through any lack of confidence, it would be, I’m thinking out loud now, I don’t even know what that would be. But the whole ability to be conscious in the moment, I think has been somewhat innate with me on the way through, now that I’m aware of how that works, how it plays out, I can help others that maybe don’t have that so naturally to work out how their experiences, you know, to be able to describe their experience more, more fully for themselves, for other people.

Gary Crotaz 20:36
So this building success that you were, that you were finding, and you were demonstrating, started at some point to get you on the radar of some big clubs?

Tony Walmsley 20:46
Yeah, and it was, so early 2000s, I was working in Brisbane at the time and had a journey through, I became a director of, the director of football, which, I left the women’s job to be a director of football, which was taking an opportunity, it was a more stable role at the time, it was a more, it was a broader role. I was concerned I might get pigeonholed as a women’s coach, I wouldn’t mind that at all now, but back then it was such a new thing. It was a different landscape, so it was a decision that, it was the first decision I really made that I think that I wasn’t so sure about. But I knew why I did it. I took it to broaden my experience, which sort of makes sense. So after that, I moved to Brisbane, I was, I was about to walk out to training and I got a phone call. The year before I’d seen this newspaper called The Australian British Soccer Weekly. So it’s where I used to get all my, all my, what was going on in the UK football world. And there’s a big half-page ad in there with a big Man United badge on it that said, We’re setting up an academy in Australia, looking for Technical Director, and I thought that’s, I’m a Man United fan, born in Manchester, the genuine article. I thought, That’s got my name on it. I’m going for that job. That’s, that’s me. I got interviewed, made the shortlist, didn’t get the job. A year later, I’m walking out to training, I got a phone call. One of the directors of the club said the guy that took the job is is leaving. How quickly can you move back to Sydney? And I was like, Two, two weeks I can be there. So yeah, took on the role of Academy Director and Technical Director of Manchester United’s Youth Development Partnership in Oceania, which was, which was brilliant, obviously, because of its affiliation, very strong links, they were investing money and wanted to find the next Kewell and Viduka and, you know, they wanted to get on that bandwagon. Don’t think the model was, was right. But part of the role was to expand the centralised model into a national group of satellite quality-assured academies. So it was quite a big, again, another big project and a great brand to be associated with and, you know, trips to Manchester and working closely with the staff, meeting Sir Alex and all of those things, they’re, they’re a really valuable part of my, my experience. And you know, there’s a lot, there’s a, there’s a hundred football stories that, that, that I could tell between that and, and where I ended up as the head coach of the Mariners having worked previously as an assistant in the Asian Champions League. And, you know, we’re talking now about serious professional football. You know, everything had been successful, I hadn’t not experienced success. I didn’t know what it was like to fail. And yeah, I don’t even know how to describe it other than that I had this, this long history in the game in Australia of, of, of being a successful coach. Without really knowing how, I didn’t really know how it worked. I knew how to coach football, I knew who I was bringing into that environment, and players responded to me, but it’s not until you actually, till it stops working that, that you, you really start to understand more than you did before and that’s what I love about what I do now is that, you know, with, with maturity comes that, that, that deeper knowledge that how, however much you grow and learn and continue to grow and learn, you recognise that the chasm and void of stuff that you don’t know, is, is way greater. So for somebody is curious as me that’s like, that big pit over in the future is absolute gold for me. So there’s real beauty in that. So, so failure when it came, as brutal as it was, was the best, the best thing.

Gary Crotaz 25:35
And how old were you at that time where you’ve been on this run of success? You’d worked for these amazing clubs and you, and you, you hadn’t yet seen the other side? How old were you then?

Tony Walmsley 25:49
Well, we’re only talking. I wa,s I was late 40s by this stage.

Gary Crotaz 25:54
Right?

Tony Walmsley 25:56
Yeah, mid to late 40s. This is, this is, this is probably worth, worth sharing. So in two, and there’s a couple of reasons to share it. So we left, my family and I left Australia, in 2012, I took on a job with Sheffield United, Head of Recruitment. Another big club, fantastic club to be associated with, a club with a great vision that I bought into. And wanting to be part of that, there were, at the time the game, especially at Academy level in the UK, was transitioning from, I suppose old school mentality, to a more modern approach to developing kids, which was, which was fantastic. So I took that on. And a big part of that, that was, we had a, we had a, one of our children, we’ve got two children, Charlie and Sophie. Charlie was born with a disability that was undiagnosed. And we’d exhausted the landscape of support in Australia. And further afield, we tried India and China and all sorts of places to try and find some, some solutions. Charlie’s condition, he was undiagnosed for the first 12 and a half years of his life. So along with the, I guess, the pain of having a disabled child, and I mean, profoundly disabled, so needing 24 hour care, non, non-verbal and not walking so, so we had this situation at home, I was skipping off to football every day. And carrying around the weight of, of life, with this opportunistic, forward thinking enthusiasm that I had for the game, and treading what is, you know, a balance of finite resources that we’ve all got, this is the resilience to, to, to get through the emotional, personal challenge over an extended period of time, and the pursuit of sporting objectives, career objectives, family sustenance, building, you know, a career that’s going to work for everybody. So anyway, after a good few years of exhausting the system, this opportunity came up in England. And there was, there was the question, well, do we take it, you know it was a big cut in salary. But perhaps the services and support and opportunity for Charlie might be better. So we took this, this, we made the move, so uprooted the family, came back to England, which was great for me – suddenly back in the English game. Charlie, we found a great place for him to live after a very long court case. That’s a whole other podcast that one. But I had, this is, this is a great moment for me. I met a guy who’s, I would consider him a friend now and a mentor. He, he had got to know me when I was at the Mariners. This was before I was Head Coach at the Mariners. This is when I was Head of Youth, been a really successful period for me. I had this personal thing going on in the background. Moved to Sheffield, he came over to Sheffield, he was working for a big supply chain, UGL Unipart engineering supply chain business, maintaining the whole of Sydney, Sydney rail network and so forth. Went for lunch with him and I had a curious question, which was, What would somebody like me do in a business like yours? How would, how would my skills play out in your world? Explain to me what that was? It was one of those moments where he put his knife and fork down and said, We can’t get people like you in our business, we would, we, we’d need people like you in our business. Anyway that, I didn’t really know what that actually meant. We went for dinner again. Cut a long story short, within a couple of months, I had a very significant offer to go and work for this rail maintainer with no previous experience other than the football. And the two parts of this, one was, at this time we had this big legal case going on, for Charlie, which was starting to cost more than my salary was perhaps going to cover if it was going on for any extended period of time. And I had an offer of maybe five or six times more to go and work in a big, a big enterprise in a, in a business, in a sort of black art of business development. And the two things came together, it was like a perfect storm, as I stepped outside of football into a serious senior leadership role in a business that I knew very little about, and I give so much credit to Glen Everett, the guy that took me in, because I didn’t really know why. There wasn’t, I wouldn’t call it imposter syndrome. Although I knew I knew nothing about what it was that I was going into. But I went in with my usual state of curiosity and ability to ask questions, check for understanding and work out what was going on, my ability to engage, my ability to, I suppose, win people over. And they almost just gave me my wings. And I floated around this place with my, not really knowing what I was doing. But I found myself fitting nicely in the niche between a customer who’s spending a billion dollars and a supplier who was scratching around trying to meet contractual obligations, and all of the conflict that was going on in there, I found myself helping people to improve their understanding of each other’s position in order to get to a better place. And that was amazing, amazing.

Gary Crotaz 32:27
There’s something very transferable between being the football coach and being the corporate leader?

Tony Walmsley 32:34
Absolutely, you know, so I tread that line across, across both, and thankfully have, fortunate to be able to speak from experience in both and to understand it from an applied sense, or a practical sense. The difference that, there are some differences. The pursuit of the objective is the same – in football, you score one, one more goal than the opponent to win, that’s it, it never changes. And the business objective may be, whatever the, whatever the shareholder returns need to be, let’s say. So some of the differences are, in football, it’s relatively straightforward to get a group of unique individuals to identify what that collective goal is, and how we’re going to agree to pursue it. It sounds simple. It’s, it is complicated, but it’s easy to go right. We’re all together, this is where we’re going, does everyone agree? Yeah, off we go. You get into a complex business, and the team… So in football, the players are sort of, it’s about face, the players are at the pinnacle of the, the organisation. Whereas in, in every other organisation, the people that play the game, the people that score the goals, are sort of at the bottom of the chain. So the hierarchy is on its head. So connecting that team to the objectives of the business is a much harder, more complex challenge. In effect, it’s the same. Where the similarities are, people often get, if you’re a great player you get bumped up into a management position. And suddenly there’s a big skills deficit that, that catches people out. And it happens in the sectors that I work in all the time where high performance get moved into management roles and then start to flounder. Because they just, they just don’t get it and why would they. So helping people to get it is, I think I’m okay at that.

Gary Crotaz 34:47
It’s a really powerful thing you say. They don’t get it, and why would they? And I think that’s, that’s the thing that people forget all the time that, that as you move from one role to another, I always remember the title of Marshall Goldsmith’s book, What Got You Here Won’t Get You There. And I, sometimes when I’m coaching people, I just show them the cover of the book. And I say to them, you may find reading this book really helpful. But as a minimum, remember the title! And actually, it unlocks something in, in people, just to remind them that high performance in one role doesn’t mean that you’re necessarily in any way prepared for, for the next role up the chain.

Tony Walmsley 35:26
Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 35:26
So you’re in your late 40s at this stage. And, and, and you touched on earlier, where you start to make this transition from, in the football world, success after success after success. And then it started to be more challenging. So bring us into that phase of your, your career and tell the story.

Tony Walmsley 35:44
Okay, so we’ve had the golden years, I’ve gone to Sheffield, bit of family drama, to summarise, and moved into the rail sector, going okay, paying really well. And while I was there, so this was, this included a shift back to Australia. So I started to do, I started to help the Mariners as an associate, as a, as a consultant, with some strategic recruitment. It’s like an extra bit of time, in my spare time, great to be back involved with the club and all the rest of it. And they, the manager got, got sacked with about six games to go. And the owner of the club said, do you think you’d be able to take the team for the six games to the end of the season. Now I’m working in this corporate, corporate world as a well-paid individual, but I knew that my heart said, Oh wow, you know, wouldn’t that be fantastic? I don’t really think I can because I’m in this situation at work. Anyway, went to see the CEO Glen, my now friend and mentor. And he was brilliant. This is such a, I forget this story until I’m telling it like I am now, this is coming straight off the cuff! They, they billed me out to the football club for corporate rates for the six or seven weeks that, till the end of the season. So I, there’s, there’s no, no lie. I left work. I’d already taken the day off on the Friday. So I left work on the Thursday, took training on Friday, was on TV on Saturday, and was back in the office, at UGL Unipart on the Monday, and even I think, I look that as, in third person and I think, I can only imagine what, what many people were thinking about, about that whole scenario. There’s a lot of incredulity around at the time, people were mesmerised, fascinated, angry, confused. This is people in, in my day job. And I’m going this is fantastic. What happened? How exciting is, is this?!

Gary Crotaz 38:16
And for my listeners who are not necessarily football aficionados, what’s, what’s the UK equivalent of being the manager of Central Coast Mariners?

Tony Walmsley 38:26
So it’s a, I would say in terms of crowds, probably the Championship, so second tier of English football. At the time, the league was perhaps stronger than it is now. So the top teams may be lower end of the Championship, League One standard, so decent, you know, some, some reams…

Gary Crotaz 38:44
It’s a big deal.

Tony Walmsley 38:45
Yeah, it’s a big deal, so 20,000 crowds at Sydney, Melbourne, you know, and sometimes more. We were, we were pulling an average crowd of about nine or ten thousand, at home, in a small community. So yeah, big deal, live TV, every game televised live, salary cap league at $2.5 million. So, you know, a decent size operation.

Gary Crotaz 39:12
So you’re on TV, you’re on the touchline, you’ve got these bigger players than you’ve ever managed before, on the pitch. And you were excited by that.

Tony Walmsley 39:21
Yeah. And it started great. So, so there was an upturn in form, the bounce-back as people call it, and, and then I was helping them to recruit the long term replacement. My intention was to stay in the role and, and this is where… the reality was, the club was, was in a bit of a pickle. You know, it was going to take, it was under, underfunded in the context of the competition. So the likelihood of being competitive was, was slim, but nothing like there is ever… I’ve never looked at football, and perhaps this is reflective of… to some degree at this point in time, the seriousness of family life, you know, and I do think about this – at the time when I was at the pinnacle of where I got to in football, I was also perhaps at my own lowest ebb as a person. So these two things collided, where I had this dissonance all the time, you’re living this outward experience as a football manager, and this inner experience as, as a father, husband, who was struggling with the realities of all of that. So it was, it was, it was interesting. Anyway, they offered me the job on a full-time basis, which was, like at what point do you, at what point do you, do you say, No? And this was a great lesson to me. In hindsight, I would have probably said no, thinking rationally, but you know me by now, to the listeners, I don’t necessarily think rationally, I think about opportunity. And I’m such an optimist that I think, You know what, we, maybe I would have made the same decision again in hindsight, because it actually is possible, what was in my head, this vision of what success looks like, is amazing, like, if we can do something special as a group together, that’s going to be amazing. And I can say that, I can visualise it. But what what I’ve learned is that, hey, not everybody shares my optimism. And even though historically I’ve been able to get people to buy into what I was doing, and where we were going, at this particular time I was asking too much of an inexperienced group too soon. And I know that now, and I didn’t change my approach. I didn’t change… If I’d changed my approach, we might have done a little better, I might have sustained the role for a little longer. Not that that really matters, the lesson for me in hindsight, or the lesson for me now looking back, is that you know what I am … delusionally optimistic at times. It doesn’t hurt to just check over your shoulder and see if everybody’s coming with you. Because I think the longer I went into it, the further people were fading into, into the background, which, which is an interesting reflection, but nevertheless, I ploughed on with, with enthusiasm, and people would comment on my disposition after a game, my positive outlook, my ability to articulate the vision and the story in the press conferences and so forth. And I was… I think with optimism, you, you do tend to, you know, you can think of it as, as resilience, that ability to bounce back quickly, that I tend not to focus on, on the result, it’s, it’s such an out of control thing, that spending too much time stressing about the result itself didn’t have a great deal of utility for me, so I would already be looking ahead. So by the time, the game might have finished, 10 minutes later you’re into a press conference with all the emotion of the game and the anger of the fans and the passion of the dressing room. And you’ve got the media people wanting elegant answers to pointy questions.

Gary Crotaz 44:08
And did you feel prepared for that environment? You know, being in that sort of high profile goldfish bowl kind of environment? Or do you look back and think, I didn’t have the skills, the experience I needed to handle some of those situations?

Tony Walmsley 44:27
I think the thing I’m most proud of of that time is the way I did handle all of that. That I, in the face of a team that was really struggling, I think I was able to, to stand up really well to the scrutiny and had a level of, a level of comfort with it that I would say is quite, is quite rare. I observe a lot of coaches behaviour as ongoing learning for me and I try to understand what, what it is that they’re experiencing when I see Frank Lampard speaking the other day after Everton lose and Thomas Tuchel after Chelsea lost, I find it fascinating. You know, and to see Jose Mourinho at his peak, and Jose Mourinho in more recent years, that, the way that these things articulate and I like to think that, and I don’t by any means suggest that I’m at their level and nowhere near it, but I think I am proud of how I, how I fronted up.

Gary Crotaz 45:40
And we’re here to, on the podcast one of the things we want to talk about is this Unlock Moment and, and for you, there was a moment in one of those live TV interview scenarios. So bring us into this moment. What was happening? And what was the lead in to this moment of realisation for you?

Tony Walmsley 45:59
Well I’ll talk you through the experience. So we’re playing at Sydney Football Stadium against one of the biggest clubs in the country, Sydney FC. So 44,000 seat stadium, maybe just less than half full or something like that. It had giant screens at the end of each ground. If you’ve ever been in a room where the TV’s too big for the room that’s it’s in, it was sort of like that. Anyway, I’ve got a bunch of… the, the squad at this stage was, there was a real toxic dressing room. It was very fragmented. So it was very, it was the most challenging time for me as a coach in my experience. A lot of young kids playing, I had a goalie making his debut. No sorry, goalie on the bench, 18 years old making his debut, a young kid in goal. Anyway, young players, not expected to win, nobody’s expecting us to win. But there’s always a chance, it’s a game of football. My family were in the crowd, they’d come over, which was wonderful. And they got to see my giant head on this giant screen and all of that kind of stuff. Anyway, we were two-nil down after about 15 minutes, then my goalkeeper gets red-carded so I’m putting an 18 year old on for his debut to hopefully try and save a penalty, which he doesn’t do. So they’re three-nil up after 20 minutes and we’re down to ten men. And at that point my massive head gets captured on this screen. And I remember, I can put myself back in that moment right now. And I can actually remember what was going through my mind which is, which is, Wow. Like a) how big are these screens? They are huge! And this could get really messy, like this, it’s, it maybe might not get worse, any worse than this, this is what I was thinking of, so 20 minutes in. Anyway, the game plays out. I think we lost four-one in the end. So it wasn’t a bad result under the circumstances. But we went straight to live interview after, after the game. I think we’d had six defeats on the bounce. So if you if you do follow football, or even if you don’t, that can often be troubles brewing for the, for the, for the bloke in charge. So sometimes they would stick a set of headphones on you and you’d go straight to a live studio interview. So no problem. Yeah, ready to go, put the headphones on. Microphone in your face. Tony, it’s Mark Bosnich, ex-Chelsea goalkeeper, Australia goalkeeper? Don’t you think it’s time you resigned? That was the first question. And this was the, this is this moment that we’re here to talk about. My immediate, my awareness went to, I need to answer the question. What a fascinating question. I couldn’t make assumptions about the agenda or where it was coming from. So I answered the question. I answered the question, No, and here’s the reason why. And the follow up question was, Can you tell me where, this was the second studio pundit, Can you tell me where the team’s improved in the last few weeks? And I said, Well, if you’ve been following us for the last few weeks, you’ll have seen we haven’t improved a great deal. However, here’s what we’re doing. Here’s the direction we’re going. So it was future-focused, answered the questions honestly, but in a state of absolute calm and presence and curiosity about, Who are these guys? And why would they be asking me these questions? Now what, the breakthrough moment for me was, in sharing this story with a former colleague of mine, who’s, I would consider him a world-class coach, an outstanding coach, not a football coach. A coach coach, if you like, a people coach. He spoke to me about how he loved my fascination. And he explained to me that you can’t be stressed and curious at the same time, you can’t occupy the two states at the same time. So then I go, okay, that, explain that to me. So he explained it. We talked about me looking at the screen, seeing myself on the screen and the fascination that goes with that. And, and I think about how I’ve related some of these stories to you today, how my trip to, that first trip to Tasmania was full of curiosity, open mindedness and fascination about, Wow, I’m a coach flying halfway around the world to do this thing. So when I’m in that headspace, there’s no possible way that I can be concerned about what that means, what the implications are, what the pitfalls might be. And it’s such a fantastic explanation for me to recognise that, throughout this career that I’ve had and continue to have, I’ve had a non-anxious presence. I can walk into the most conflicted situation, and people have fed back to me that, You just put everybody at ease, you have, they’ve used terms like, You’ve got, you’ve had an aura about you. And I’ve felt that myself sometimes, I know that I’m calm when there’s chaos going on around. I actually thrive in chaos, because I’m curious about it. I’m seeing people explode, and things falling apart. And I’m, I just feel that it’s okay. And that’s, there’s been an innateness to that throughout my life, personal life, career, you know, I go back to situations, you know, early in life, when I became that, that, that, that father-figure there was that, it was like the go-to guy to be, to smooth things over, to help things out, I go to my career in rail, where I was finding myself between an irate customer and a subject matter expert who was really angry about, about this thing, it’s like, what is that? And, and that ability to stay curious by nature diffuses any anxiety that I might be feeling. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel it, but I don’t feel it at the same time.

Gary Crotaz 53:19
And I think that that image of you with the big screen is such a great one, because it’s really bringing to life that you are able to observe the situation, and yourself in it, from the outside in, which is a, is a rare skill. And I know a lot of coaches work with their coachees, senior leaders very often, on exactly that skill, you know, look at that conversation that you’re in, as if you were standing at the side of the room, that sort of Gestalt model of coaching. And actually, you were in a real situation, seeing your face on screen, that enabled you to put yourself outside that situation and not only see that you are calm under pressure, but that you understand why you’re calm under pressure and this is this curiosity coming through. I think, I think that’s a really powerful learning. And you use that today when you’re, when you’re working with senior leaders on their high performance now, is that a theme that comes through for you?

Tony Walmsley 54:19
It is a theme, yeah, there’s there’s a couple of themes. One is, one is to, I like to work around resonance, so what is resonance, especially from a team perspective, and helping them. So I know what was interesting. A former colleague of mine’s now managing in the Scottish Premier League. And I went up there to watch, watch them play Celtic a couple of weeks ago, which was, which was great for me to be reconnected and watching a game again, and I enjoyed it. And what was beautiful for me was spending hours with these elite coaches and listening to their approach and them explaining how they seek results and pursue results and train the team to do it. And my contribution to the conversation is so much different than it, than it would have been if I hadn’t pursued this broader field outside of football, or maybe it would? Because I’ve always gone outside the game to grow my, my experience. But yeah, I can, I can help people just, just have a different, I look at it through a different lens. And the focus everywhere is so results driven, I can watch, I can go to a football match. And I can see the people emotionally attached to the result change their behaviour in an instant, the crowd, the coach on the sideline getting irate. And it’s like, Wow, that’s a, that’s fascinating. I mean, I’m intrigued. And it’s like, there’s no, the anxiety that exists around that focus on the result is significant. And it’s to the detriment of performance. So if I’m, if I’m a coach who’s anxious about we’ve conceded a goal, then how does that translate to the group, and the group already identify with me to varying degrees from day one, some that are more like me and get me, we’re going to get on well from the start, and there’ll be a, there’ll be a drop, if you imagine there’s a 25 person squad, the person at the top is most likely, and everybody else to some different degree, I rubbed them up the wrong way, depending on how far away they are from some of the things I like to do. So my environment, a small adjustment to my environment, may make a big difference for more of the squad and bring them closer to an optimum level for example. I don’t think coaches know this, I think coaches walk into a new team on a, on a, in a dressing room and, and perhaps with all the good intention, outline their vision, their methods, their approach, how, how they’re going to work, and want people to buy into that and only that. And I get that’s the thing, and that’s a way to do it. I just think there’s a greater opportunity to learn how to make, as the leader, some small adjustments in how I function with each of these people, and how I tweak my environment to suit the people that I’ve got, that can be the difference between relegation and not, that can be the difference between me getting fired or not, you know, the average tenure for a football coach in England was something like 130 days 12 months ago. So that, imagine if you could double that, then that’s got to be a good thing. And that translates to business, it’s the same.

Gary Crotaz 58:24
One of the reasons why I always love our conversations is, is your level of, of, of self reflection and awareness around these drivers of success. And there’s something you said in there that I wrote down. The focus on results is sometimes to the detriment of performance. And I reflected on that story when you were talking about when you first took on the big role, and you went for it with enthusiasm and drive and everything you’d got, everything that made you successful up to that point. But then you sort of look behind you and realise that not everybody was quite with you. They weren’t, they weren’t following you. And I think I’m hearing now, you know, the learnings over the years of the successes, but also critically, the failures. And this is what makes you such a powerful high-performance coach, you’ve seen both sides, you’ve lived both sides. Things that leaders think are the route to success aren’t always, sometimes to the point that they’re actually actively destroying the success of, of the team or the organisation. And not because they’re trying to destroy it, but it’s the inadvertent consequence of the way they lead.

Tony Walmsley 59:34
Yeah, yeah, that’s fantastic Gary, and you know, and I know we have to wrap up. I think of that time and my, I suppose, no fear and optimism in the face of a really complex challenge. Why would a 20-year-old centre half in his debut season be willing to go on that path with me? You know what? They may be fearful of just stepping over the line and fronting up, never mind trying to go to the level that that I was asking them to. I think that’s really important because we have to, we have to operate at, Yes, we want people, people grow from, from facing challenges and breaking through them. And, you know, I’m proud that, that we did that. I was asking way too much though. They could have done it in smaller steps. And we could all have had more success together had I, had I got my act together.

Gary Crotaz 1:00:38
It’s amazing. And I thank you for your openness and your authenticity in which, with which you’ve, you’ve, you’ve told these, these amazing stories. So Tony, what’s next for you? What’s coming up this year? What’s ahead?

Tony Walmsley 1:00:50
Well, I’m building a platform, I’m really excited. So I’ve studied personality for the last couple of years, qualified with the British Psychological Society. I’m really interested in how, I think, I think understanding our identity is where our greatest strengths lie. So if, you know, when I first started out on this path, thinking about the 98% of academy footballers that don’t make it, for example, so what is deemed success and what is deemed failure, surely 98% of people are not failing. So who are they? And then when a player gets to the end of the career, and I’ve only ever, I am a footballer, they’re suddenly no longer a footballer and have an identity crisis, there’s a whole, there’s a whole field of work in there. And the same happens in business, that they identify by what they do. And it comes with consequences. And I think that this platform that I’m developing will be more granular than a DISC profile and a Type profile. Using the Big Five, but I’m making it very, very granular. And in the performance context, so I’m really, it’s maybe a month away from completion. And I’m going to apply it into sport, which I’m really excited about. And I’m going to continue to use versions of it in, with the business clients. And the purpose will be to bring insights to the surface that help managers, coaches, leaders, make the adjustments they need to make to motivate their people the way they like to be motivated, and there’s some significant gains to be had there. And I’m really excited about that.

Gary Crotaz 1:02:42
That’s fantastic. And where can people find out more about you?

Tony Walmsley 1:02:46
I’m on TheLeadersAdvisory.com. And I’m on LinkedIn.

Gary Crotaz 1:02:53
Fantastic. Thank you, Tony. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Tony, it was a provocative question on live TV that changed his perspective of how he played his role at his best. Seeing himself from the outside in, he could see the power of his curiosity as the antidote to stress. We’re all desperate to learn the secrets and habits of high performance. It’s been fantastic to be able to tap into Tony’s mind today and draw on his wealth of experience, both the highs and the lows, to discover that path to fulfilling your ultimate potential. Tony, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Tony Walmsley 1:03:31
Gary, thank you very much, it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Gary Crotaz 1:03:35
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Coming to you all the way from New Zealand today, Lauren Parsons is an award-winning wellbeing specialist who believes that everyone deserves to thrive. She and I met a while back when I recorded with her on the Thrive TV Show, and I was really keen that she bring her particular brand of positive and healthy mindset to The Unlock Moment. Health and wellbeing is a big part of my own background in both medicine and dance. Lauren is passionate about equipping and inspiring people to truly boost their health and happiness. With over 20 years’ experience in the health and wellbeing profession, she is a sought-after speaker, coach and consultant who helps busy leaders find the sweet-spot between boosting wellbeing and productivity. Lauren is a TEDx speaker, the author of Real Food Less Fuss and Seven Myths To Overcome, the founder of the Snack on Exercise movement, an Emotional Culture Deck-certified practitioner and host of the Thrive TV Show. Lauren specialises in helping organisations create a high energy peak performance team culture where people thrive. Based in the Manawatu, New Zealand where she lives with her husband and three children, she can often be found hosting dinner parties, playing board games, or spending time in the beautiful New Zealand outdoors. Lauren, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Lauren Parsons 2:22
Oh, kia ora Gary, thank you so much! It’s lovely to be here.

Gary Crotaz 2:26
I’m so excited that you could join today. So start out with telling us a little bit about your story. We talked a little bit before we started recording about your upbringing and how that formed something of, of the person you turned into as you developed through your career.

Lauren Parsons 2:41
Yes, indeed. Yeah. And I quite openly share the story that, when I was at school, I was always the shy un-sporty kid. And I can recall spending the year in physique class and I was really scared of physique class. And I can recall my sports teacher just saying, Hey, you guys, you two, just pick people for this next team game. And so I’m standing here, and my classmates are saying, Oh I’ll pick you. And I’ll pick you. And I’ll pick you, and I want you, and I want you, and I want you, and pointing to all my classmates. And so I’m here just the last one left standing, just wishing. Yeah, just wishing that in this moment, somehow the ground could swallow me up, because all I want to do is cry. And I don’t want anyone to see that. And so that just played itself out over and over and over again. And as a young person, I really lacked confidence in myself, especially physically. But somehow when I, somehow someone came to school and talked about going on exchange, and I went to a meeting. And before I knew it, I was winging my way over to Paris, France, where I lived for a year exchange, which was a wonderful year, and I had an amazing time and a lovely, incredible host family who were like family. But I came back to New Zealand after that. And then I went to university. And just like everyone else, I joined the gym. Maybe because it was only $20 for you know, the entire year. And really, I was just a sheep and I just followed everyone and joined the gym. But I was really intimidated by the gym. And I can recall walking in Gary to this bright, shiny reception. And through the way there was this big entrance into the sports hall. And there were these people in there with these bars on their shoulders. You might have seen them, with this circular things at the end, and they were doing these movements up and down. And I didn’t even know what it was called. But I can recall thinking to myself, I could never do that. I literally thought, Lauren, I could never do that. And I’d go and instead just go and hide at the circuit room and do little exercises there which again, I didn’t know what they were called. But I was really intimidated in that environment.

Gary Crotaz 4:54
And you were shy in sports. You were shy outside of sports as well. You were kind of a, more introvert?

Lauren Parsons 5:00
Yes, I was, yeah, people used to tell me that I was shy. And I realise now when I look back, I think I just started believing it. And I’ve really noticed that now when other adults say that about my own children, you know, because I think it’s actually really natural when you meet people for the first time when you’re in a new environment, you know, you stick close to your parents, or you just observe for a bit, I think that’s actually entirely normal. And it’s interesting hearing other adults, for example, say, Oh, they’re shy are they? And it kind of gets to me because I think, Oh, don’t give them that label! Because I realised No, I’m not shy at all. I’m actually really extroverted, and I love being with people. But yes, I really lacked confidence.

Gary Crotaz 5:42
It’s interesting. And, you know, we talked in the introduction about some of the things that you’ve done, you know, you’ve stood on the TEDx stage, and given a talk, which is up on YouTube, if people want to go find it, and, you know, to equate that with that really shy kid at school is very interesting. So one of the questions I was interested to dig into is, you know, it, was that a transition in your confidence over time, or was it sort of unlocking something, some confidence that was always there, but kind of suppressed when you were younger, do you think?

Lauren Parsons 6:16
Oh, that’s a great reflective question, Gary. Yeah, for me, I think part of it is a gradual thing. But there was really this one moment that I guess unlocked it all in terms of, when I was at university, a friend dragged me along to a step aerobics class at the gym there. And while I didn’t get all the moves right, I found that actually it could be fun. So I went back and after I went back a few times, they said, If you want to be an instructor, just come and see us afterwards. So I did. And it still kind of surprises me. But I remember a friend had planted the seed as well, she said to me, Wouldn’t it be great to be an instructor and then you would get paid to get fit. And I remember just taking that away thinking, Oh, that would be good. So anyhow, I went along to the instructor training programme, and somehow this shy un-sporty kid turned into an aerobics instructor. And I discovered only at that time that I actually had enough rhythm to do the choreography. So you know, that was a bonus! But I also discovered two other things. One I discovered there was someone that believed in me, and that was Amy, my boss at the time. And you’ll know this, Gary, the power, just incredible, that power that someone has when they believe in another human being, you know, that really is life changing. But perhaps most of all the third thing was that I discovered I was capable of more than I first imagined. And I believe, Gary, that this is true for all of us. So you know, everyone listening in right now, you are capable of so much more than you imagine. And that was really, I guess, what I discovered through that journey, and very soon after Amy actually left, and they needed someone to fill in that leadership role, and so they said, Hey, Lauren, do you want to be the temporary aerobics manager? So suddenly I was leading the team! And a few months later, they said, Actually, you do a pretty good job at that, you can just carry on. And so that launched me into working in health and wellbeing and becoming really passionate about helping others to boost their confidence and their wellbeing through discovering the power of movement.

Gary Crotaz 8:18
There’s two steps in there that I really want to understand more, because of the two, there’s two steps I can’t quite get my head around yet. The first one is the moment when somebody said, Why don’t you come with me to a step aerobics class? And you going, Yes. So what was it in that first moment that made you go, I’m going to go to my first step aerobics class, when, you know, up to that point, maybe it was something that, that you wouldn’t have thought of doing before, you wouldn’t be confident to go do before? What was it that got you through the door on that first class you did?

Lauren Parsons 8:49
Literally, it was having that friend to take me along. And I think it was probably one of those things when I’d looked in before, it was probably something that to be honest, I felt like, Oh, I’d like to be able do that. But it was, Oh no, I couldn’t do that. I could never, you know, keep in time or, just honestly, everyone, when you look into those, the room, they just look so professional, and they know how it all works, and they know where their gear goes. So that was just probably a desire, but didn’t have the confidence. So just having that friend that said, Hey, come on, let’s give this a go, over time, I discovered that actually I could belong in that space. And I think that’s, I think belonging’s a really key thing. You know, I focus on workplace wellness now. And one of the things that I often talk to leaders about is how do we create this really amazing sense of belonging, so that people feel totally connected then with the colleagues and you know, what we call high psychological safety, like a high trust environment where they just feel safe and they can just focus on doing their best work. So yeah, I guess I discovered this new sense of belonging among this tribe of people that go to fitness classes, but it was really a friend that started it.

Gary Crotaz 9:55
Okay, so I, so I see you in the room, you know amongst all these other people, and as you say, belonging in this tribe, which is great. Then somebody says to you, why don’t you stand at the front and hold the microphone and lead the class and you went, That sounds like quite a good idea! So what was the what was the trigger that made you go, I want to come out, I’m even comfortable to come out of this kind of group of people and stand at the front with with the microphone. That’s quite a big deal.

Lauren Parsons 10:23
To be honest it does still surprise me, Gary, I just, I look back and I think, How did I ever do that? And I can remember, after doing the instructor training course, I sort of realised through that time, you know, you’re somewhat comparing yourself to the others was, there was probably about eight of us doing it, and as we’re learning different things, I actually realised, see I was always good at maths at school, and aerobics is all about fours and eights and sixteens. And we were creating choreography, because it was freestyle choreography back then, so it’s very old school. You know, when it was called aerobics, now it’s called group exercise or group fitness. So yeah, I, it was interesting going through that process and discovering, Actually, I can do this. But it still surprises me. And also, after I did the course, and I actually had to start teaching in front, I can remember my stomach would be churning. And I’d walk up there and just plaster a smile on but I was, you know, literally just so nervous underneath. But then over time, as Amy Cuddy says in her TED talk, she says, Fake it till you become it. So not kind of just fake it till you make it, try and be false, but just do the things that you know you want to be able to do, and over time, you get better at them. And then you really, truly will be a great aerobics instructor, or, you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is that you aspire to be.

Gary Crotaz 11:39
You made me think of a memory that has just sort of come popping out of my sort of deepest, darkest history, which I’ve never talked about on a podcast, I didn’t write about in in my book, was, when I was at school, I was doing debating and public speaking, in like the school clubs, and nothing in any sort of great level. But I had this particular teacher who was leading that kind of programme. And I remember that I was giving my little monologue up on stage with about I don’t know six people in the hall, you know, just a little group of kids. And he said, You need to intonate more clearly and be more interesting in your tone. So now I’d like you to sing your speech, from the stage! To no particular tune, just whatever comes into your mind. And I remember, that was a breakthrough moment for me that I’ve never felt more uncertain and nervous about speaking in front of an audience than that moment on stage where I had to sing my speech to six, I don’t know, 15 year olds or whatever we all were at the time. But it’s quite interesting that those sort of formative experiences later, later on in life, you can find yourself in front of 1,000 people or something. And actually, it’s still not quite as terrifying as that, as that moment. And I wonder whether that resonates for you as well with this, you’ve, you know, you’ve grown the audience that you’ve talked to, you know, you’ve spoken to over the years, you’ve been a lecturer as well, haven’t you at university.

Lauren Parsons 13:09
For the New Zealand College of Fitness, yeah I ended up teaching anatomy, physiology, nutrition, personal training, human performance. And actually, I wasn’t, my job title wasn’t lecturer, actually I was what was called a Presenter of Fun and Laughter! So it was literally on my name badge, Lauren, Laid-Back Lauren, Presenter of Fun and Laughter, and everyone had these double-title names, you know, you might have been Groovy Gary, or something like that! We all had these really fun names. And we had to teach you know all the, all the muscles in the body, all the bones in the body through song and dance and lots of really advanced anchoring techniques for adult learners, because it was this tertiary training programme. And it can be pretty heavy going learning anatomy and physiology. So we were taught in this very unique style. And that, again, has formed what I do now, you know a lot of what I do is, it’s all adult learning. And, and I have a really unique approach because I was taught when I was at the College of Fitness, how to present in a way that really engages the brain, you know, for example, we’d never leave our students sitting for longer than 20 minutes, we’d be getting people up and you’ve just, I noticed Gary, I’m very thankful that you said you watched my TED talk earlier, and those that watch it, you’ll see that halfway through, I get the whole audience up and moving and hopefully, if you watch it from home, you’ll get up and move as well because it’s about what you can experience in your body. When you do that, that will unlock you know the understanding level in terms of what your, what you experience shifts your understanding of what you’re actually hearing.

Gary Crotaz 14:35
I’m very interested because you, because you present in a lot of different formats, you present on stage, you present in the classroom, you present online. And you’ve talked about you know, for you inside, it doesn’t, you don’t always feel confident, you don’t always feel, you know, and I think we’re all like this, you know, the the mask we put on to other people is not necessarily the same as what it feels like in our own head. So what do you do just before the little red light goes on top of the camera or just before somebody gives you the cue to start your speech on stage? What are you doing, to get yourself, your game face on, to get ready to go out there and give that presentation?

Lauren Parsons 15:14
Hm, well again, Amy Cuddy comes to mind. I don’t know if you’re familiar with her TED Talk. It’s one of the most watched TED Talks. And she talks about what people often now call power posing, or holding expansive postures. So standing with your feet firmly underneath your hips, and having your hands on your hips and your belt buckle forward, or even lifting your arms up in a V. On adopting these sort of expansive postures shifts how you feel, because what you do with your body’s physiology instantly affects your psychology. So for example, Gary, when I was at the back of the stage before my TED Talk, which was exhilarating but also terrifying, because you know, your time, there’s this countdown timer going, and you only get one shot at it. And, you know, I was thinking, Oh, my goodness, I really want this to be good. I want this to come across well, so I was in the wings and I was standing, feet firmly planted, hands on my hips, and I was actually alternating between hands on my hips and arms raised, focusing on breathing deeply, and diaphragmatically, which helps to shift our body’s physiology, you know, from the red zone, the fight or flight zone into the blue, calm and parasympathetic side of the nervous system, which is where you want to be to make great decisions, for example, and to go out and perform at your best. So a couple of things yeah that I do, I focus on what I’m doing with my posture, my breathing. And I also just picture it going really well. And also think about how I want to show up. So I sort of try and shake out any stress or tension. And just think about, you know, I just want to have fun today, I want to be real. And I want to connect with the audience. I actually got to speak at my own daughter’s school to their teachers, which was amazing. And oh it was just such a privilege to speak to these people who have so much love and respect for, and who are investing in my kids’ lives. But I felt this pressure that, oh, I have to deliver. And so I just I, you know, they asked me as I arrived, How you’re doing and I said, Oh, I feel great. I’m so excited. I’m also quite nervous. So one thing I’ve learned is it’s really good to be honest about our emotions and how we feel as well. Because the more we can label our emotions, the more that we allow some of those tricky or curly emotions to actually dissipate.

Gary Crotaz 17:35
And do you think there’s, there’s, there’s something about labelling positively?

Lauren Parsons 17:40
Yes. So we were talking about this in the session actually as we were talking about stress and our perception of stress. So I could either say, Oh, I’m feeling really nervous right now. Or, I’m feeling really excited! And you know, people talk about get those butterflies to fly in formation, the way that you frame up your body’s physical stress response and that physiological response of your heart and, heart rate increasing and you’re breathing deeper, things like that. If you see that as positive, there’s studies that show that that then means that you won’t suffer from the negative, the downsides of stress, you’ll actually reap the benefits of what’s called eustress, which is good stress. So I think setting an intention, one thing I do every morning is set positive intention, for how do I want to be today, how do I want to feel today? Do I want to be confident, or playful, or flexible, or open-minded, or courageous, or whatever the thing is, depending on what I’ve got on for the day, so I recommend in the morning, while you have a stretch, some part of your morning routine, think about how do you want to show up for the day and set that positive intention.

Gary Crotaz 18:46
And you know what’s so interesting for me is hearing that flow of the narrative from when you started out where you’re saying, when you’re at school, people were labelling you and placing you in a, in a negative headspace, by, by, by calling you shy. And now you’re turning that same sort of mental model around to say, Well, I can turn that to my advantage because I can create a way of thinking about myself that is, that is positive. And actually the, the mechanism by which that happens is exactly the same, it’s just using using a positive intent to do it. And that’s really powerful.

Lauren Parsons 19:24
Absolutely.

Gary Crotaz 19:25
So, so when you think now, when you think back through, through this journey that you’ve been on, what, what, what was the impact do you think on you and on others of finding this positive mindset and, and positive attitude to life that you’ve, you’ve now embodied in all the work that you’re doing?

Lauren Parsons 19:45
Well it’s a huge blessing to me personally, and hopefully, you know, my goal was always to create a positive ripple in the world. That’s what my logo and all those things are about. That, you know, someone that comes along and hears me speak, if there’s one thing they can take away if they can apply that in their own lives, that that will have a positive ripple out to others. And I just want to say as well, like I’m just standing on the shoulders of giants, there’s so many things that I’ve learned from others, there’s so many incredible books and podcasts and TED talks out there. And I just am a huge fan of lifelong learning, have a big growth mindset. So I think there’s always more we can learn. And I’m always learning more about myself and my own challenges and things that I need to work on. But I think one thing is absolutely true. And that is that our mindset does determine the direction of our life. And, and I can’t recall who said it to me, but somewhere in my early part of my life, someone must have instilled in me the belief that if you persevere that you can make anything happen. And as I say, I wish I had someone I could thank for that. But I don’t know where exactly that came from. But one thing I’ve always tried to do is just take the steps outside of my comfort zone, trusting and knowing that as you do that, each time you do your comfort zone is just going to get bigger and bigger, it doesn’t shrink in around you as you as you step out, it just expands. And so you know, to anyone that’s listening in, if there’s something that you’ve been thinking that perhaps you want to do, just like me looking into that sports hall. And it’s interesting, Gary, because the questions that you’re asking me are really insightful, because it’s helping me reflect on it, you just got to take that step, you know, you’ve got to put your foot in, you’ve got to take that one step. And then trust that your comfort zone is going to expand. And as it does, you’ll be better as a person. And you’ll be able to have more of a positive impact on those around you.

Gary Crotaz 21:38
And what’s interesting is, I think I observe, that you’ve had multiple steps. So you took the step from outside the aerobics hall into the aerobics hall, then you took the step from the aerobics group to the instructor role. Then one day, you took the step onto the TEDx stage. You didn’t need to make any of those steps. But each time you’ve not been finished there, you’ve not gone, OK I’m in the room. I’m in the back row, I’m doing the aerobics, that’s all great. This is me. You’ve then gone, This will go somewhere more. And I think that, that sort of continuous development is very interesting to hear. I can kind of hear it in your psyche as you’re, as you’re talking through.

Lauren Parsons 22:21
And I think being forced, being a military wife, where you end up being moved around from location to location, and for me that was totally foreign, because my mum and dad still live in the same family home that I grew up in. My husband moved around a lot when he was a kid. But for me, that was quite a foreign concept, to constantly be uprooted and moved. But I’ve discovered that I do love reconnecting and making new friends and connecting with people, we’ve had to start and build friend networks over and over again. And, and there’s actually a lot of joy in that, there is sorrow as well when you leave them behind. But there’s been a lot of joy along the way. And I haven’t always known what’s come up next. But I guess what’s been great for me is over the last, what has it been, 15 years that I’ve run my own business, I’ve been able to direct where I want to go myself, which is again a huge, huge privilege. And I know for you, Gary as well, you had to make that decision didn’t you, to step out from one path and change direction. And I think the more that people can, yeah, it sounds a little bit blase I know, but follow your heart. And by that I mean, follow what you think is actually going to bring you joy right now, because we do only get to live once. This is it! And we’ve just got to make the most of it!

Gary Crotaz 23:36
It’s a really powerful message, it’s a simple one and lots of people say it, more than people maybe listen to it. But yeah, it’s interesting. And you know, you were talking about that path and following your heart. And then what you said just now is, you know, you don’t necessarily know what’s going to happen next. So, you know, as we sit here in 2022, and you look ahead, do you have this big vision of where you want this all to land in 20 or 30 years time? Or, you know, do you, do you have any idea of what the, sort of, the next year or two ahead is for you? Or, or do you think it’s, it’s, it’s a blank sheet of paper and you’re looking forward to filling it in as you go?

Lauren Parsons 24:15
Well, it’s, it’s both actually. So yes and no. I am a big believer in planning. My husband and I many years ago, we did like a spreadsheet and we ended up calling it the Freaky Master Plan and, oh my God, I’m like, I’m just revealing all of my deepest secrets here today, sharing things I’ve never shared. But we do, we had this spreadsheet called the Freaky Master Plan. And this was before we had kids. And we put in there our goals around when we wanted to have kids, what we wanted their income to be, when we wanted to buy our family home and things like that. And it is quite, it is freaky actually Gary, looking back on it, because all of those things that we had as goals pretty much have all happened or we’ve far exceeded them, which has been quite extraordinary. So when I cast my mind forward, like I believe in having, you know, have a vision for your life and a vision for your business. So one of, part of my vision is to help a thousand organisations and a million people to boost their health, happiness and productivity. And so a while ago, my business coach said to me, So how many of you helped? And I said, Excuse me? And she said, So how many businesses have you helped, Lauren? And I said, Oh, I don’t know! Because I just like, I’d written it as a vision statement, I hadn’t really thought of how I was going to measure it. But now I am measuring it. So now I know exactly where I’m at. And, you know, we’re almost 20% of the way to helping those thousand businesses. And so yeah, so I guess, when I say yes and no, yes there are some specific goals, and I think that is so important, because it draws us towards them, and it helps us realise what’s possible, and when we put a timeframe on it it’s much more likely to happen, and when we share it with others, as well. But also, I’m open to seeing how things evolve and what comes from it. There’s a few short-term things I know I’m writing a book this year, I’ve got a deadline for that. But I don’t know what my key focus for next year will be yet. And so a lot of it is, it’s like when you climb the ladder, and as they say, focus on the next rung, and then the next rung after that. Because sometimes we look all the way at the top of the ladder, it can be a little bit daunting. So I have loose and broad goals over the long term. But specific and measurable goals over the short term as well. And just, yeah, enjoy the ride in between.

Gary Crotaz 26:29
Amazing. Can you give us any secret sneak previews of the book? What it’s about?

Lauren Parsons 26:34
Oh, yes, oh I could do, yes. It’s very early stages. But essentially, the book is all about how to thrive personally as a leader, and how to cultivate a great workplace environment that your team will thrive. So yes, it’s focused around workplace wellbeing, focused for leaders, team leaders, right up to CEOs, but also relevant for anyone that wants to boost their health and wellbeing, and also for their colleagues and workplace.

Gary Crotaz 27:02
It’s a big part of my coaching philosophy with The IDEA Mindset is this idea of an Irreversible Commitment. And when my book started out, the first thing I did was I posted to LinkedIn to everybody to say, I’m going to write a book. And once I posted that, and about, because people forwarded it and shared it and things, about 25,000 people saw it. And I was like, I’ve really got to write it now. Because I’ve told people, so, so I know you’re going to finish your book now because you’ve told all my listeners that you’re going to do it!

Lauren Parsons 27:28
And actually this is the first time I’ve talked about it, I actually haven’t done it yet, Gary, I’ve, I’ve told a few people, I’ve I’ve shoulder-tapped some people that I’m interviewing as part of my research, but I haven’t publicly announced it yet. So this is… that encourages me and spurs me on to do that. So I shall do that myself as well. Thank you Gary!

Gary Crotaz 27:48
And where can people find out more about you and the work that you do and some of the things that you’ve, you’ve published and put out there?

Lauren Parsons 27:55
Well, you’re very welcome to head to LaurenParsonsWellbeing.com. And yeah, you’re very welcome. I’ve got a book that I wrote, that’s called Five Keys to a Positive, Energised, High-Performance Culture. And essentially that’s, it’s like the 20-page version of the book that I’m now writing in full. So it’s like the concise overview, if you love checklists, that will be really helpful for you to get ideas around boosting your wellbeing and also in your workplace. So yeah, there’s tonnes of articles there. And also, if you love podcasts, feel free to tune in to ThriveTVShow.com to check out my Thrive TV Show podcast and you’ll be able to listen to Gary’s episode on there as well!

Gary Crotaz 28:34
Fantastic. I’ve listened to many episodes and you do really great content there, I love it. So thank you so much, Lauren. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Lauren, it was deciding to train as an aerobics instructor having been the shy, un-sporty kid at school. It created a huge identity change and sparked a lifelong passion for helping others to boost their wellbeing and confidence by unlocking the power of movement, health and energy. There’s a shy un-sporty kid in all of us and Lauren, you’ve really demonstrated how you can throw off the shackles, find your confident self and make an impact on others. It’s been an absolute delight. Lauren, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Lauren Parsons 29:17
Thank you Gary so much, such a pleasure to share with you.

Gary Crotaz 29:22
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Hayley Thomas 0:06
He started to experience various symptoms, went to the doctor, we had a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with the doctor. And actually looking back, they were all the the symptoms that you’d associate with cancer, with bowel cancer, but none of them were particularly taken seriously because he was 40 and fit and healthy on the surface. To cut a long story short, it turns out it was actually bowel cancer. Eventually, we realised that it had spread, so it had spread past his bowel, it was in his lymph nodes. So it was Stage Three effectively. Luckily, it hadn’t spread further than that. My perspective on life changed completely. And there were, you know, this, this idea of, you know, there’s always time completely changed, because it really brought clarity to the fact that there’s not always time. And all of these things that you want to do, actually, you just need to get on and do them, there’s never going to be a perfect moment to do whatever it is you want to do.

Gary Crotaz 1:13
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Hayley Thomas is the vibrant and dynamic founder of Eleven Loves, an online fashion brand centred around effortless style, feelgood designs and sustainability. I’ve known Hayley for a number of years and we used to work together in the customer team at Mothercare. I love discovering the story of how new brands come into existence and the whole entrepreneur journey. I just know you’re going to be inspired by Hayley, and you’ll find this a really memorable conversation. Let’s get to know Hayley a little better. Despite childhood ambitions to become a fashion designer and a lifelong fascination with entrepreneurship, Hayley’s early career took a more traditional route. After studying English at Cambridge, she originally went into corporate banking before gravitating towards the more colourful world of fashion retail. After over 15 years heading up the digital and customer experience strategy for some of the leading UK High Street retailers, Hayley established her own brand now known as Eleven Loves. What started as a side-hustle has now evolved into a brand stocked by the major High Street retailer Next, loved by celebrities and with a growing following on social media. That’s 35,000 Instagram followers at the latest count. I love the iconic ‘Où est la Discothèque’ print, which is designed to make you smile and put a bounce in your step. So without further ado, let’s get into the conversation. Hayley, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Hayley Thomas 3:36
Thank you, Gary. That was, that was a lovely intro. And thank you for inviting me.

Gary Crotaz 3:41
I’m delighted to have you, to have you here. So start off with telling us a little bit about your story, a bit about your upbringing, maybe in the journey you’ve been on to get where you are today.

Hayley Thomas 3:50
Yeah, sure. So I grew up in a town in the Midlands called Corby. It was a, or still is, a steel town. I grew up in a fairly working class family, so my mum worked in HR, my dad was a carpenter and fitted windows. Went to the local comp, and was fairly quiet I would say – I kept my head down to stay out of trouble at school and would probably be termed as a spod. I was quite academic and quite studious. And it’s quite interesting looking back. There were sort of two camps really, there was the academic camp and then if you weren’t kind of traditionally academic, you were creative and, and the two were kind of separated at the time. So I can’t act, draw, sing or dance. So therefore was not in the creative camp! But as I say was, was quite academic and looking back actually, I think I kind of wrote myself off or any creativity off at that time because I wasn’t in that camp of sort of being practically creative. However, I was always creating new things in hindsight, looking back, I was always writing plays and had a big period of kind of writing plays, and always kind of had a new idea for a business. And that has been a theme that has kind of carried on throughout my life, I’ve always got a business plan on the go, and always got a new, new idea. And I loved designing. So while I couldn’t and still can’t draw, I loved sort of creating outfits, so putting together snappings, from magazines, and fashion was a big part of my family life as well. So my mum and my Nan, were very into fashion, it was part of the conversation, you know, we’d go shopping together, it was our hobby, it was kind of part of what binded us together as a family, particularly the women in the family. And then I went down the traditional, traditional education routes, went to uni, read English at uni, and then went on to a graduate scheme for a bank, which in hindsight probably wasn’t the right fit for me. But I think at the time, there’s a real sense that you need to do, you need to get a ‘proper job’, in inverted commas.

Gary Crotaz 6:18
And when you think back, when, when was the first time do you think you first started thinking about a business, you know when you were growing up? Because some people, like, they’re eight or something and they’re thinking about selling sweets out of the back of a van or something? You know, and where were you in that, in that journey as a kind of childhood wanna-be entrepreneur? Do you think?

Hayley Thomas 6:41
To be honest, I can’t exactly remember when it started, but I can remember the ideas that I came up with along the way. So I remember being in a garden centre with my parents, and that was our kind of Sunday activity, you’d go to the garden centre. And they had little, those little stone hedgehogs that you sit on the wall. And I remember going away from the garden centre and doing a whole load of research around how you could create these concrete hedgehogs and how much it would cost to do that. And you know, could you do it at home, I found other people who were doing it at home. And so along the way, there have been a broad variety of business ideas from concrete hedgehogs to mobility scooters. So it tends to sort of link, link to something I’m going through at the time. So my nan found herself in a wheelchair. And so I was thinking, gosh, you know, it’s very difficult to get the right equipment, there must be a big market for this. So I did a lot of research on that. We got into sort of refurbishing a property. And so from that sprung another business around interior design and, and sort of refurbished furniture. So there’s always a business idea on the go. And I don’t know where it came from, to be honest. The first couple of years of my life, my parents ran a pub. So it may be from that. But it’s just always been something that I’ve known that I want to do. And I’ve always said, you know, at some point, I will run my own business. You know, it’s always been in the future, it’s always been kind of a few steps away.

Gary Crotaz 8:14
And when you were at university was it something that popped up at any time when you were studying?

Hayley Thomas 8:19
Not so much to be honest. And that was probably I think, because I was so busy, probably the only time where I didn’t start running my own business, or didn’t kind of come up with a plan necessarily. No, so it wasn’t so much at university. But it was something that kind of I was thinking of throughout my childhood. And then after university, there was always, you know within my jobs, there was always something that I could do as a as a side-hustle, that actually never came to fruition for a very long time. There’s been a lot of business plans on bits of paper.

Gary Crotaz 8:54
And, I mean, I know from painful experience, my own experience of, of having a, being in a career that I realised wasn’t right for me, which for me was was studying in medicine. What was the moment in banking when you knew it wasn’t you? And it wasn’t your future?

Hayley Thomas 9:14
I think I probably knew the whole way through, to be honest, but didn’t really see, didn’t really see an alternative and didn’t necessarily see that the kind of more creative fashion world that I kind of ended up in was, was really a business. And I think there are a few moments within banking where I kind of look back and think they were probably the moments that I really knew. It was quite a traditional environment. And I know banking has changed since then. But at the time, it was quite male-dominated. And I remember I had three suits and they were all kind of various shades of grey. As someone who loves fashion and who’s grown up loving fashion, with quite a sort of family who love colour, and I do remember one morning putting on my, my kind of mid-grey suits, and just thinking, Oh, my, you know, this just isn’t me, it’s just not me. I don’t feel like myself, on many levels, not just the level of kind of what I’m wearing, but just the kind of the conversations that I was was having and the environment and that I was in, it just didn’t feel like me instinctively, I’d say.

Gary Crotaz 10:31
I talk to quite a lot of people who are in that place where the, the way I articulate it is, something’s not right. And I don’t necessarily know what, and I certainly don’t know what to do about it. But I feel very strongly that something’s not right. And I think I hear that coming through in the way you’re, you’re describing, you’re putting on that suit going, This isn’t, this isn’t what I should be wearing. But I don’t necessarily know what, what I do next. So how did you transition from, from that point to, I’m going to leave and do something different with with my life? And where did you go next?

Hayley Thomas 11:05
So I got to the point in banking where I knew that I wanted to leave. And so there was more of a sort of push factor at that stage, than a sort of clear pull towards something else. I had a mentor in the HR director, so he was very supportive. I had quite frank conversation, we started talking about various ideas. And actually it was him that sort of said that, you know, I was saying, you know how much I’ve loved fashion and how much I love designing as a child, it was him that said, Have you thought about going into fashion? And actually, there was an opportunity to take redundancy. So him knowing that I wanted ,wanted to leave actually was very supportive and helpful in kind of putting me on that list. And that gave me the opportunity then to take some time out and get a bit of work experience and start to sort of build contacts. And I was just very lucky and that the right job came up at the right time. So there was a strategy role that came up within the umbrella organisation of some major women’s High Street retailers. And yeah, I applied for it, got it. And that was a whole new world really, that opened up for me.

Gary Crotaz 12:18
And how quickly did you know that that was a better fit for you?

Hayley Thomas 12:22
Oh, immediately, I would say, the day I walked in, I was surrounded. In fact, probably at my interview, I remember being shown round at my interview, and I was walking around an office that was full of rails of clothing and shoes. And yeah, for someone who loves that, and who, you know, gets a lot of energy. And is very passionate about that. That just felt like the environment f,or me, it was like a kind of polar opposite of the sort of slightly grey banking world that was at the time.

Gary Crotaz 12:54
And you you spent a few years then in in that kind of world. And you, and you morphed into this deep expert in the sort of digital customer experience I know, and that’s, that’s how, how we met and worked together. So tell me a little bit about about where your interest and your focus morphed to in your corporate roles over that period of your career.

Hayley Thomas 13:15
Yeah, so I went in as a, in a strategic role. And this was before digital really took off. So digital was very new, for, in fashion retail, and I worked with the teams to set up a whole new, you know, the first website that they had. And I think at the time, I remember having a conversation because I had a real sense that I wanted to get closer to customers, and customer experience and user experience weren’t a thing either then – there was customer service. But that was as close as it got. So I had a real sense that I wanted to get closer to understanding the customer and producing something for them. And at the time, I think I thought that that was producing the clothing for them. And I remember having a conversation and said I you know, I really want to move into the buying, the design side and was absolutely shut down and told, you know, you don’t you know, the two are completely separate parts you haven’t started out on the right path. You know, you’ve started out on a corporate path, a strategic path, you know, not the sort of buying, design, creative side. So, I think as digital kind of emerged as a sort of area of expertise, so did user experience and customer experience and within that I think I saw the opportunity to be creative, to create something new and I think that’s obviously what it’s, it’s all about, it’s about kind of improving the experience, creating new experiences for the customer, really understanding the customer and what, what they want. And then creating, you know, it might not be creating a product but it’s actually creating an experience, a way of engaging, it’s kind of creating the product in the wider sense, the broader sense of, you know, it’s still a part of the business. And so that’s where I think I kind of fulfilled the sort of creative need at that time.

Gary Crotaz 15:08
And I know you know that I’m very passionate about this way of thinking about Who is the customer? What’s their experience today? And, and how are they interfacing and experiencing your brand and, and, and the journey that you’re going on, and all of those kinds of things. And, and, you know, I notice a lot with, with organisations of all types that they’re very focused on what they’re doing. And then at some point as a user who experiences it. But turning it around so it’s real customers, it was sort of no surprise to me, when I remember you, you first told me about this brand that you were developing yourself. And it, I think it fit your way of thinking very much, because you were one of the people in the room who was saying, Remember that there’s real people on the end of this. And you got to think about the journey and experience that they’re having, you were always very tuned into that. So bring me through to you know, the origin of what’s now become Eleven Loves. Where did that start?

Hayley Thomas 16:03
So I think it probably started when I was on maternity leave. And in the same way that putting on a kind of mid-grey suit when I was in banking felt wrong to me and didn’t feel like I was myself, I think the kind of, the ‘mum uniform’ in inverted commas of you haven’t got time to think about your outfit in the way I might have done when I was working in, in fashion, you threw on the first pair of jeans and sweater that you, you could. And I think to me at the time, I had a real sense of, you know, there aren’t many things in my, in my day-to-day wardrobe that make me feel special, in the same way that I might feel when I get dressed up to go to work. And that felt like, you know, I didn’t necessarily at the time think that was a massive gap in the market. But it just felt like, you know, there’s actually there’s an opportunity, there’s something that, you know, it would just be nice if there was something that I could wear that, you know, I could still wear running around with the kids and I wasn’t worried about, you know, not being able to sort of crawl around in a soft play or you know, all of those things that mums find themselves doing, but still felt like me and still felt like I was kind of expressing myself and still felt special. So that’s I think when I probably first started thinking about it, but I would say at the time, starting a business still felt far off, it still felt comfortable to me to write the business plan and think about it at that level. But there was always a reason why I couldn’t actually turn it into an actual thing. So be that we don’t have enough time. You know, we need more financial stability. Don’t know enough. You know, it’s quite scary starting a business when you don’t feel like you know absolutely everything about all of the different roles involved in that business. So there’s definitely that. The economic environment’s not right. So there’s always a reason why I will do this, but not now. I’ll do it in three years’ time or five years’ time.

Gary Crotaz 18:07
So you’re still in your stone hedgehog mode?

Hayley Thomas 18:09
Yes!

Gary Crotaz 18:10
Yeah. Where it’s a great idea. And wouldn’t it be lovely if?

Hayley Thomas 18:14
Yes!

Gary Crotaz 18:15
So, we’re here because we’re talking about Unlock Moments. And these are these sort of flashes of clarity when you figure out the path ahead. So talk me through what happened next for you.

Hayley Thomas 18:28
Hmm. So it was actually quite a negative, a big negative experience in my life that actually was my Unlock Moment. So I’m married to Ben, we’ve been married for a long time, I can never remember quite how many years, a long time! He started to experience various symptoms, went to the doctor, we had a lot of to-ing and fro-ing with the doctor. And actually, looking back they were all the the symptoms that you’d associate with cancer, with bowel cancer, but none of them were particularly taken seriously because he was 40 and fit and healthy on the surface. To cut a long story short, it turns out it was actually bowel cancer. We were told, he was sent for a colonoscopy eventually, and came out of that and we were told straight away that it looked like it was cancer. At which point things moved very quickly, I think, because it’s kind of been left for quite a long time, despite, you know all of the symptoms. And eventually, we realised that it had spread so it had spread past his bowel, it was in his lymph nodes. So it was stage three effectively. Luckily, it hadn’t spread further than that. But that was a huge turning point I would say, obviously in his life but in my life as well seeing that happen to somebody that you love. And I think at that point, my perspective on life changed completely. And there were, you know, this, this idea of there’s always time completely changed because it really brought clarity to the fact that there’s not always time. And all of these things that you want to do, actually, you just need to get on and do them, there’s never going to be a perfect moment to do whatever it is you want to do. I thought, Right I’ve just got to get on and do things. We both wanted to run a marathon. And we also both ended up running a marathon the year after as well, after he finished his treatment. So it was, you know, it wasn’t just the business, there were other things that we wanted to do as well. But it made me think that I just needed to start something. And, you know, the environment and the situation definitely didn’t need to be perfect to do that, and absolutely wasn’t, you know, it couldn’t have been less perfect in hindsight, starting a business as you, you know, your husband’s about to embark on a year of chemo, and you’ve got two young children to look after, and a lot of uncertainty. But actually, I think that, as I say, that changed our perspective, and just made me think I’ve just got to do something now.

Gary Crotaz 21:05
And how old were your children at the time?

Hayley Thomas 21:07
They were four and seven at the time.

Gary Crotaz 21:15
Yeah, so young, young. And did they understand what was going on?

Hayley Thomas 21:19
They did. Yeah, we I mean, as much as you can when you’re four, but we explained to them what was going on. I did a PowerPoint presentation, Gary! So we presented it to them on the big screen to try to, with, you know, with cartoon characters and all. So yes, they, I just didn’t feel that we could hide, hide it from them. And you know, my husband went, had to have a big operation and was in hospital for quite a while. So, so they did understand. And they were they were incredible throughout the whole thing. But yeah.

Gary Crotaz 21:56
And we’ll come back into the Eleven Loves story. But Ben now is okay, isn’t he?

Hayley Thomas 22:01
Yes. Actually, he’s just had his five… so you get a sort of, you’re closely monitored for five years afterwards. And just last week, he had his final scan, and was told he’s effectively cured.

Gary Crotaz 22:16
That’s fantastic news!

Hayley Thomas 22:17
He’ll always be kind of monitored probably a bit more closely than the average person. But yes, he’s all well, thank you!

Gary Crotaz 22:22
That’s really good news. I mean, you can’t imagine a more significant sort of shock life event, particularly at that stage of life, you know, for somebody that as you say, is fit and well and 40 and sporty. And so the two of you, I mean, you know, you’re starting a business of your own. That’s that’s not just a you decision. That’s a whole family decision. So how did you, how did you talk about it together in terms of what that was going to mean for you? How did that sort of follow through?

Hayley Thomas 22:57
Yeah, I mean, I think we, I think the sense of we just need to get on and do things was so strong that all of the you know, what does this actually mean, in terms of the impact on the, on the family wasn’t really a consideration at the time, and it’s probably, that’s probably the only reason why we started it. Because actually, if I think, if I had thought through the impact, you know, I obviously, it was a side hustle, I had a day job. So that’s a lot of time to spend on top of looking after two children. Ben is very involved. He has a day job as well. He was going through treatment at the time, but he was still packing parcels! And still does. You know, so I think we didn’t necessarily discuss the long term because I think discussing the long term had been always been the thing that stopped me just going for it and getting on with it. But yeah, it has had a big impact, but a positive one, I think. I think it’s nice for the children to to see what you can do.

Gary Crotaz 24:02
And that’s interesting that, that there’s there’s a lot of merit in planning, and thinking through what it’s going to mean and running your spreadsheets and building your, building your detailed Gantt charts and all of that. But there’s also some merit in not getting so hung up on that, that it never happens, and getting going. And I hear that balance in what you’re describing now, which is a bit of an entrepreneur skill actually, there’s, there’s entrepreneurs who don’t do enough forward planning and end up sinking a lot of money into something that can never succeed, and then there’s a lot of others that are still on stone hedgehogs now, and they’ve just never started that business. I’m definitely going to grab the stone hedgehogs metaphor for all my future coaches!

Hayley Thomas 24:43
That’ll be the headline!

Gary Crotaz 24:44
So bring to life a little bit the essence of the brand and what it was that you created.

Hayley Thomas 24:52
So I wanted to create a brand that was about everyday wear but making women feel special in what they were wearing every day. So I wanted to create a brand that was, was practical, that you didn’t feel like you needed to save for best, but still felt like there was something about it that expressed you, that expressed some personality, that made you feel like, you know, you was, what you were wearing, despite the fact that you were wearing it running around the soft play or the park, was still special. So that’s, that’s a core kind of element of the brand. And I think the other thing that has been a kind of non-negotiable throughout is ethics and sustainability. And I think I spent a long time when I was working in high street retail looking at at that, and really, sort of, getting to into the detail of how factories work, and how clothes are made, and the practices around that and how workers are treated. And I think that was something that from the very start, I knew that if I was to create a clothing brand, it needed to be ethical, and it needed to be sustainable. And whether that means that, you know, I, I spend a lot more on my product, because it’s organic cotton, that’s something that will never change, you know, I will always aim to use sustainable fabrics, to ensure that whatever factories that I’m working with are audited to the highest standards. So that’s always been core to the brand as well. And I think the third thing is, is kind of making it personal. So I love the whole small business space, I think there’s an amazing small business community, particularly through Instagram. And I think people buy people and whatever happens with the brand in the future, I, you know, I love the fact that I talk to my customers and I, you know going back to my kind of background in customer experience, I love knowing what they think, I love hearing the good and the bad from them. I love getting their input into you know, what colours I go for or what patterns or you know, design features. So I want it to sort of stay like that, I want it to feel like a small business, whatever happens with it in the future.

Gary Crotaz 27:08
I really love that. And certainly I know we’ve talked about before, you know, you’re a reluctant catwalk model, but I know that it’s been important to you to be personally present on your on your Instagram feed, modelling your own clothes, and that plays to that ‘It’s personal’ piece. So tell me, tell me about what it felt like the first time you were out there in front of camera with, with, you know, modelling your own clothes on Instagram. What was that like?

Hayley Thomas 27:35
I will never, I don’t think I will ever be comfortable with that! I, my photo pose is kind of completely upright with my hands by my side, I’m you know, I’m not a natural… Going back to the, you know, at school, I can act I can’t dance, I’m not comfortable in front of a camera, Gary. But as you say, it’s, I feel like it’s very important. And I feel like people want to see the person behind the brand. So I’ve just got used to it. And I, you know, the first few times I made myself do it. And now actually I do enjoy the process, I enjoy thinking through how I can show them the products. I don’t necessarily enjoy being the model, but I like you know, I like showing people how you could put things together and how you can wear things and, and making that fun as well. I think you know, there’s a whole lot of fun in Instagram, particularly in the kind of reels and videos. So you know, and that’s a big part of the brand is fun and feelgood. And you know, sort of tried to bring that all into the, into the reels and videos that I produce.

Gary Crotaz 28:37
And we’ll put the link in the show notes. But I think I know that people when they go and look at the Instagram feed, they’ll pick up on that real humanity of the brand, that it’s, it’s real people and real clothes that you can go and wear, and I really love that because there’s so much that is sort of overplayed in terms of fashion, where it’s all a little bit inaccessible, and, and sort of glamorous to the point of you wouldn’t actually go and wear it. And I really like brands that you know, you’re talking about the ethical and sustainable angle. It’s really important because people really care about it. And I think that comes through really strongly in what you’ve done. Something that I’m really interested to hear about is the practicalities of running a side-hustle fashion business because most people, they’re in the stone hedgehog mode and they go well, you know, I do like the idea of one day being, you know, Ben Francis of Gymshark, or whatever it is, but they don’t think about the bit in between where you’re at your kitchen table packing boxes and posting them off and all of that. So what does it look like in your home to be running your own fashion brand? You know, like practically what kind of things you actually do?

Hayley Thomas 29:47
Yeah! So there are a lot of boxes in my home at the moment. I’m, we had a delivery earlier this week, actually, which has slightly tipped us over the edge. So we already had our spare room full of boxes, and part of my bedroom. And now we’ve got, we’ve got downstairs and the upstairs hall. So I am looking now at outsourcing distribution because it’s reached that point where we can’t, we just can’t live surrounded by boxes anymore. But in terms of the sort of day to day, there is a lot of, you know, we do everything, you know, I do everything, and then Ben in his spare time, there’s all of the packing. But day to day, there’s a lot of, a lot of packing. There’s a lot of samples around so I’m surrounded by things that I’m working on. And, you know, I do a lot of buying products that I like and thinking, how can I change that? How can I make that better? So there’s a lot of kind of samples and things that I’m halfway through working on, around me, there’s lots of fabrics around me. I spend a lot of time talking to customers, so spend my evenings, you know, I might be sitting with the kids with the TV on but I’ll also be chatting to customers and answering queries and you know, giving them you know, I’ll be watching the television, I’m measuring the waist of the new jeans. So there’s a lot of facts. There’s a lot of learning, actually, as well, because my background isn’t the product side of things. And as you start to sort of move into more technical areas, you need to understand how a product’s formed and put together. So I’m working with some, you know, some experts in all the right areas. So there’s a lot of learning which I’m loving, as well. But it is yeah, it’s varied. And then we won’t mention the kind of accounts and the tech support!

Gary Crotaz 31:42
But I come back to the the authenticity piece that, you know, you’re at a stage where you’ve got your website, you’ve got a range, you’ve been going for years, you’ve got 35,000 Instagram followers. And when a customer’s reaching out, they’re talking to you, the founder of the brand, you know, and that won’t be the case forever I’m sure, as it continues to scale and continues to grow. But there’s something really authentic about, you know, it’s still you and you want to be the person that’s there directly in touch with the person who’s buying your your products and engaging with everything you’ve created. So I really like that, that coming through.

Hayley Thomas 32:19
Yeah, no, I think it’s important that, you know, to find a way of doing that however big the business gets, or not. I think that’s really key.

Gary Crotaz 32:29
And I know in the last few months or so you’ve been thinking through and working through some really significant changes in terms of things like the brand and your time and your involvement. So what’s happened most recently in terms of, you know, how it’s all been developing?

Hayley Thomas 32:45
So the first big thing is that we’ve rebranded. So the brand actually started out being called Love Sweat + Tees. And I remember at the time I was chatting to someone when I was trying to think of names, and she said, But doesn’t that just limit you to sweaters and T-shirts, because that’s, that’s what we started as, it was all printed sweaters and T-shirts. And I remember saying at the time, no, because that’s all I’ll ever do is, you know, it’s only ever going to be a hobby, it’s you know. And I got to the stage where I wanted to expand into other product areas, still keeping to the sort of everyday style theme, but Love Sweat + Tees didn’t really work as a brand name anymore. And so we decided to rebrand. It was the complete opposite of any other rebrand I’ve ever worked on in my corporate life, which would typically take you know, six months to a year and involve lots of PowerPoint presentations. And also, so I went for a walk on the Friday, was chatting to Ben and said, You know, I really think I should have rebranded, I should have renamed the business. He said, Well, you know, just do it! I was starting to do more PR and going out to newspapers, and I thought well actually, it’s now or never really because I don’t want to rebrand after, after that. So we went for a walk on the Friday. And then by the following Wednesday, I’d completely rebranded. I got a new name, a new website or web domain, a new logo. So it was, it was the fastest rebrand that I’ve ever done. But that’s one of the lovely things about a small business and running your own business that you know, I, you know, I obviously went out and spoke to people and spoke to friends and family and said, you know, is this, is this right? Does this sound okay? But yeah, it’s good just to be able to get on and do things.

Gary Crotaz 34:46
And what does Eleven Loves mean, and where does that, where did it actually come from?

Hayley Thomas 34:49
So the Loves bit, I wanted to kind of retain the connection to Love Sweat + Tees, I was trying to sort of keep the love in there somewhere. And then the Eleven comes from the fact that I sold my very first piece on the 11th of November, back in 2017. So, yeah, that’s kind of part of the story. And that’s where the Eleven comes from.

Gary Crotaz 35:12
Fantastic. So when you think back about all these elements of the journey, what have you learned about yourself, having having gone on that journey with Eleven Loves?

Hayley Thomas 35:23
So a couple of things. I think having kind of gone through my school life thinking, I’m not creative, and you know, that’s, I’m sort of not allowed to sort of work in that area or comment in that area, I’ve actually realised that I am creative, I might not be practically creative in that, you know, I don’t sit there and sketch designs, but I can, you know, I have a good creative eye. So I think I’ve gradually grown in confidence and realised, actually, you know, I’ve created something, I’ve put it together. And people want to buy it. And not only are people buying it, but they’re coming back and seeing how much they love it, and that their friends have noticed and commented on it. So I think, you know, I’ve realised that about myself. And I think, you know, you really shouldn’t write off, you know, elements of your own capabilities that easily. I think I’ve also learned that actually just getting on and doing things is the best way, and there’s, you know, nothing’s ever going to be perfect. Actually, I think, as a planner, I’m naturally a planner, and a sort of strategizer. Sometimes it’s kind of bringing out the doer, and just getting on and doing, and learning that way, and you’re never going to get it right 100% of the time, there will always be things that don’t work, and that fall flat, actually growing a business that way it feels like you probably end up with something that’s sort of more true and more real, because you’ve learned from real customers, rather than from books or, you know, bits of paper or plans or models. So I think just doing, as well, is my big learning.

Gary Crotaz 37:10
What is it do you think that that makes you feel a little bit like you’re writing off your capabilities, as you describe? So why is it that there’s this kind of voice in your head, you know, that’s questioning you a little bit along this journey? Because clearly, you’ve demonstrated that you’re able to and have launched and grown a significant fashion brand in your own merit. So there’s not a question of capability, but there’s something in us all, I’m interested for you to just bring that to life for you, the thing, that voice that says, you know, But what if you can’t?

Hayley Thomas 37:46
I think the idea of kind of being creative has changed. So I know when I was at school, there were, it was almost, if you can’t draw, and you can’t act, and you can’t dance, and you can’t sing, then therefore, that’s, you know, you’re, you’re in this bucket, you’re not in that bucket. And so I think you know, a lot of these things comes back to what you’ve been told, and not necessarily a question, because you’re too young to question it. And you’re being told that by, by your teacher. So I think there’s that. I don’t know, I guess we’re all as you say, everyone has self-doubt, don’t they? And everyone has things that they have assumed about themselves that they’ve picked up over their life, whether that’s from some things that have happened, or, you know, just, just messages that have filtered through.

Gary Crotaz 38:37
Does it ever leave you, I mean, even as you have objective evidence from your business continuing to grow, and do well and build, that that sort of nagging voice in your head, does it change or not particularly?

Hayley Thomas 38:50
No, but I think you can kind of harness that for the good. So I am incredibly critical of whatever I produce, but actually, that’s a good thing, because I don’t you know, I’ve gone through that process of picking it to pieces, we’ve just produced a jumpsuit, which has taken me a year and I think I’ve driven everyone mad in the process, because I’m, I was on sample eight by the time I said, Actually, that’s right. But you know, I’d get the sample and say, Oh, no I think that, you know, the sleeves are too big or the legs are too narrow, or the shoulders are too puffy. So I think actually, me being quite critical is a good thing for that. Because I’ve gone through that process for the customer, so that by the time the product reaches the customer, it’s, in my eyes, it’s right and it’s, it’s perfect. And I think if I wasn’t quite so self-doubting and critical, then the product wouldn’t be quite as good.

Gary Crotaz 39:44
And when it is right, and you receive that first box of the new products, the new, you know, whatever it is that’s come through and you hold that for the first time. How does it feel now?

Hayley Thomas 39:57
It feels amazing, actually. Yeah. And I still can’t quite believe it. I think when I get it and I put it on, I think, Wow, this is, this is mine, this has come from me. You know, and the experts that have supported me along the way, and they, you know, they deserve an awful lot of credit. But yeah, it’s amazing. And it just it doesn’t feel like a job, it feels like it’s, it still feels like my hobby, even though I have just handed in my notice to my day job. And I know it is my job now. This is my living. It doesn’t feel like a job. But it feels like just being able to do that is a real joy.

Gary Crotaz 40:36
That’s amazing. And I spoke to another interviewee on an earlier episode of The Unlock Moment, a guy called Micah Lorenc, who was talking about that same thing where he said, you know, imagine you get to do every day the thing that you love more than anything else, and he said that’s what my day job feels like to me now. He’s going through that same journey of having quit a big corporate role to do something that at the moment earns a lot less money and, you know, puts him in some ways under more risk. So when you’re thinking now, and you said, you know, you’ve handed in your notice on your on your day job to take this full time. How does that feel? In terms of, you know, your eggs are in one basket now!

Hayley Thomas 41:15
Yeah. I mean, I’m definitely feeling the fear. In that there isn’t that financial, sort of, fallback, this needs to pay me! You know, it’s, it’s not a hobby anymore. So I think I’m definitely feeling the fear. But it is liberating to be able to fully concentrate on something and not have your mind in so many different places. I think it makes me even more focused on getting things right from a product perspective, because I need to be more commercial. And while I still, you know, I still trial things and risk things, because I think you have to and sometimes I design something and I think hmmm not sure this is my customer, and then I launch it and people love it. So I love having that kind of Marmite piece in the collection. But it is making me even more commercial and even more sort of focused on you know, doing things right, and getting it right for the customer.

Gary Crotaz 42:17
So you’re all in both, both feet. What’s the next year ahead got for you, do you think?

Hayley Thomas 42:24
I’m so definitely expanding the range. So retaining the focus on everyday wear, but expanding. So we’ve already expanded beyond sweaters and T shirts, we now do knitwear, which is recycled cashmere, we do ek denim. So I’ve got jeans and a jumpsuit live, I’ve got some shorts coming. For summer, we’re looking at dresses and organic cotton blouses. And then it’s beyond that, so I’m already starting to think about winter as you do. So I think it’s looking at becoming even more sustainable and even more ethical. And I’m really interested in kind of emerging fabrics and emerging processes and emerging technology that, you know, will create even more ethical and even more sustainable garments. So I think that’s a big theme for us. And continuing to talk to the customers, I think because my time has been a bit constrained because of the day job. You know, I’ve, I talk to customers all the time, but I want to do more of that. So I’d really like to get out there and you know, meet customers face to face and maybe do some roadshows and popups and that sort of thing as well. So they’re all in plan this year.

Gary Crotaz 43:49
Fantastic. And where can people find out more about you? And about the Eleven Loves brand? And where can they find your product?

Hayley Thomas 43:55
So the website is ElevenLoves.co.uk. And we’re on Instagram, so you can hear from me, but also from customers as well. So I share a lot of customer content on Instagram. Because I do think that’s the most powerful way. I can tell people all day long that you know, these these products are beautifully made and great quality. But actually I think it’s hearing from my customers that you know really brings the brand to life and really gets people to sort of understand what we’re all about. So, so yes, you can find me on Instagram doing silly reels. And walking up and down, yes!

Gary Crotaz 44:31
Hayley, thank you so much. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Hayley, it was the journey with her husband and family through cancer diagnosis and treatment that gave her the clarity that life is short, and the drive to turn her entrepreneurial dream into reality. Eleven Loves is a fantastic sustainable fashion brand. And please go check it out on the web and social media. It’s such a moving story. I’m so grateful for Hayley for coming on today with such openness, honesty and authenticity to share it with all of you. I’m sure Eleven Loves is going to go from strength to strength over the coming months and years. Hayley, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Hayley Thomas 45:12
Thank you!

Gary Crotaz 45:16
This has been The Unlock Moment a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!