March 2022

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz, and I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were, with what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. I met today’s guest almost a decade ago, I was working on a big strategic project, and my boss introduced me to the team of lawyers who were going to be working with us. They were fantastic lawyers, coming from one of the top London firms, super-slick and smart and slightly intimidating. And then one day one of my team said, And have you heard Serena sing? I imagined maybe she was an amateur soprano or dabbled a bit in musical theatre. I did not think that she had a side-hustle as a full on dance / pop star. I was blown away! We’ve been friends for years and I’ve enjoyed seeing both her legal and her pop career go from strength to strength. So fast-forward to today. Trade policy expert, businesswoman and artist Serena Kern-Libera is living proof of what’s possible with hard work and passion. In 2020 she won the prestigious Asian Women of Achievement Award, which recognises the contribution of Asian women to businesses and communities in the UK. Founder of D2D Records, Serena is an artist in her own right under the stage name Segiri. She set up D2D Records as a social enterprise aimed at marrying her love of music with her legal and business background. Aside from her day job in international trade, Serena is involved in multiple initiatives promoting women, education and diversity of thought. I can’t wait to hear more about all of it. Serena, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Serena Kern-Libera 2:49
Gary, thank you so much for having me.

Gary Crotaz 2:52
So start out with telling a little, telling us a bit about your story. So tell us a bit about your upbringing and what formed the person that you are today.

Serena Kern-Libera 3:00
So I am half Swiss, half Indian. People always hear that and say, Oh, that’s that’s a strange combination. But actually, in the little town that I’m from in the southeast of India, there were a number of Swiss families actually, this this goes back to a long, long time ago, my grandfather’s time. And I was born and brought up in India, in a little town called Coonoor in the Nilgiri mountains, very beautiful. Tea-growing region, actually, for those of you who are tea lovers. And yeah, I was born there, spent 18 years of my life in India. It was a great upbringing. I went to two schools. I went to a local school until I was in my early teens. And then I went to an international school, because I started to think about, you know, what do I want to do? Where do I want to go to university? And the UK was kind of vaguely on my radar at that time. I knew I wanted to go abroad somewhere and try something different. But yeah, I spent 18 years of my life there and then moved to London for university. But it was a very different upbringing. And London was a bit of a shock to the system. But that was great because that’s what I was looking for.

Gary Crotaz 4:27
And did you know anybody in London when you first came? Or were you on your own?

Serena Kern-Libera 4:32
I didn’t. I was completely on my own. When I started, because I decided, having watched too much of Ally McBeal, I decided that law was something I was really interested in pursuing. But I decided I wanted to experience something different to what I had experienced before. Like I say what, you know I wanted to go abroad. It was either the UK or the US. Having had many discussions with my mum about leaving home and how far away I was going, we agreed on the UK, just because it was closer than the US.

Gary Crotaz 5:15
And how did it feel when you, when you landed in the UK for the first time?

Serena Kern-Libera 5:18
It was a little bit overwhelming. If I can describe my town in India to you, it was a very small town, and it was great. But everybody knew everything about me, and I knew everything about them. And it was a very close-knit community. Coming to London, it was a very anonymous place, is what I would say, and I went to the LSE, which, you know, it doesn’t have a campus, you walk past people and you don’t know whether they’re a student or they’re a tourist, or it’s just, you know, you look at a building and you don’t know whether it’s an LSE building or a shop. And it was very anonymous, it was very different in that sense. But I loved it. And I kind of embraced the fact that you just have, it’s such a melting pot of cultures. And there’s so much opportunity. So yeah, it was overwhelming, but really exciting at the same time.

Gary Crotaz 6:22
And when you came to graduate, then was it obvious to stay in the UK at that time? Or did you think about moving again?

Serena Kern-Libera 6:29
I think I wanted to stay in London, like for me, you know I had spent 18 years of my life in India, it was still, London was still relatively new, and there was still so much to learn and explore. So for me, yeah, I didn’t really think about going abroad again, I kind of wanted to continue the process of really making London my home.

Gary Crotaz 6:54
And so you started building your legal career in London?

Serena Kern-Libera 6:57
Exactly. Yeah. So I did my three year law degree at the LSE. Then I did the legal practice course, which everybody has to do. That was six months. And then I jumped straight into work, which was a whole different experience!

Gary Crotaz 7:15
And describe for my listeners the, what does it feel like? What’s the kind of balance of work that you’re doing when you’re working for a law firm? How, you know, how intensive is the work? What kind of things are you doing?

Serena Kern-Libera 7:28
I mean, it was very intense. I have to say, I really enjoyed my time at my firm. And I spent, what was it, five years at my law firm, five and a half years. And I did, so I qualified and I became a corporate M&A lawyer. And that’s where I met you, Gary! When I was in that world. I mean, it was really interesting. You work on some really interesting, complex international transactions. I learned a lot when I was seconded to the business where I sort of met you, I just got insight into a real-life business in a way which I probably wouldn’t have been in many other jobs. And that was really exciting. We were doing something really cutting edge. And yeah, I felt you know, you’re at the forefront of a change, and a big change in a big business’s life. So all of that was really exciting and fascinating. But at the same time, very time consuming. So from a work-life balance perspective, not that great, if I’m to be honest.

Gary Crotaz 8:51
And I know we’ve always connected on having major side hustles so at the time that we first met I think I was still a professional ballroom dancer. So I was doing my my big strategy role. And then I was most nights in a week with my wife training as a dancer and travelling around the world at weekends. And then I discovered that you were running your own pop career. So how did you first get into music? Where did that start?

Serena Kern-Libera 9:14
So, and I should say Gary, by the way, that’s why I think we just clicked instantly. I don’t meet many people who do something similar. So that was great. And I think that’s why we’ve stayed friends. But where did my music career start? I would say I have always loved singing, I’ve always loved music ever since I was a child. But growing up in India, first of all, I would say that my parents were very open-minded. They really encouraged me to kind of pursue whatever I wanted to pursue, but I was a little bit surrounded by others who were not that open-minded. So for me, I never, I never thought of music as something that I could do as a career necessarily. And I don’t know why, in the back of my mind, I thought, okay, law will be the serious thing that I do. And then music will be, as you put it, the the sort of side hustle that I can do in my spare time, if I have the time to do it. So I came to London, I was pursuing law, but I started doing lots of open mic nights at university. And then that’s when I really started writing my own music. And whoever heard me performing really encouraged me. And they said, You know, I can’t believe you wrote that. Why don’t you do this on a more professional level. And it kind of grew from there. And I was lucky along the way, because I got spotted by a really good manager in London. And he really helped guide me along the way. I then got to work with some really amazing producers. Rishi Rich was one of them who’s really, that opened a lot of doors for me. So Rishi Rich, for those of you who don’t know, was very big in the, the kind of British Indian scene, and had a lot of number one hits. And he kind of, you know, he knows everybody who’s anybody in the music industry and working with him, he, you know, he really encouraged me and said, You’re so talented. And you should really think about doing this more seriously. And it was that encouragement that started to drive me to think about doing this on a more serious basis. Rather than this just being a complete side-hustle that I just do, you know, whenever I have time, and if I have time, it’s something I thought, well, maybe I should dedicate a little bit more time to. And it’s also a passion for me. So I think it’s important that you make time for your passions.

Gary Crotaz 12:12
I remember the moment, the moment that I twigged that it was different from somebody who does something in their spare time, was when I saw your music videos, and it’s like, you know, it’s full on, you know, pop star music videos, and that was, you know, you’re still relatively early in your, in your journey, then. So tell me a bit about, you know, when you started to do that, and how you made how you make that happen? How do you go from, I’m singing in an open mic night, to I’m recording a music video with a load of extras and driving down the street in the car and all the rest of it?

Serena Kern-Libera 12:43
I think, so it has been a real journey for me. And it’s been a journey of discovery as well, where you kind of go from thinking, Okay, this is one random open mic night that I’m going to do. And maybe people will like my music. And you know, I’m going to, I think there are hurdles that you have to get over as well, just about in terms of putting yourself out there and thinking, well, how are people going to react to this? Because, because as opposed to law, where you’re just, I suppose interpreting a piece of legislation. This is, you’re writing your own story. You’re putting yourself out there, you’re making yourself vulnerable to people. And then you think, well, how are people going to react to this? So I think I slowly started to build my confidence, because the reaction was good. And I think I got a lot of encouragement from friends and from family along the way. And one, yeah, there was a certain turning point where I thought, Well, why don’t I just go for it and do a music video because it looks like it’s fun. And actually, it was a huge amount of fun. My first music video I think I recorded it somewhere in Sheffield. With, with this guy who I had contacted through the internet and said, You know, I’ve seen some of the other stuff you’ve done. I’ve never done one of these before, shall we, shall we just go for it? And it was a it was, it was a bit of experimenting and turned out better than I expected it to. And when I put it out there, again, you know, you have to get over the hurdles of, Do I put it out there? What are people gonna think? Are they gonna say, What is this lawyer trying to, like, what is she doing? But you get over that. And actually, it was great! I loved it. And it just as I said, grew from there. And actually the the music videos helped me get the attention of the people I then ended up working with, like, like Rishi and that again opened so many doors for me. So I think it was just a case as I say of self-discovery, but also just getting over those hurdles, and not being afraid to kind of put yourself out there.

Gary Crotaz 15:03
So talk to me about identity. So you know, you’re describing the lawyer who’s, you know, nose-deep in legislation, which you were then and you still are now. And then you’re also this, you know, dance / pop star, recording music videos, and it’s creative. And to me, they seem, and I kind of get it from my own background, but they seem very, very different sort of mindsets. So do you think of yourself today as you know, a pop singer who does law, as a lawyer who’s a pop singer? Or are they are they like two completely separate identities that you balance?

Serena Kern-Libera 15:43
It is a really interesting question, actually. So I would say, I don’t even think about it in that way. I don’t wake up thinking, Am I a lawyer? Am I a singer? For me, and also, I know, so a lot of people have asked me, you know, these are two completely different things, how do they work, and they seem to be two opposing things almost. But for me, I guess, I’ve never seen them as two opposing things. I think as a lawyer or whatever, in whatever job you’re doing, in a serious profession, and I say that in inverted commas, I think, I think people underestimate the value of being creative. And I think, you know, you’ve called certain professions the sort of, the professional world and then you’ve got the creative world. And sometimes I really query that because I think, well professionals need to be creative as well. And why do we underestimate the value of creativity? Creativity is important in everything I think. And for me personally, I truly believe that I’ve gotten to where I’ve gotten in my professional career because I have given myself the freedom to really explore and allow my creativity to grow. So I’ve never seen them as two opposing things. And I’ve never seen myself as, as it were switching mindsets and saying, Okay, now I’m going to be the creative and Okay, now I’m going to be the professional. And actually it’s, it’s something I’m quite passionate about. Because, you know, I do a lot of work with young people in schools. And I set up an initiative, where we’ve got a group of 15 of us, women, and we go into schools and talk about, you know, careers and career options. And I think, and I did this as well, I think a lot of students build up in their head a perception of what a certain type of professional needs to be or look like. And, and for those who are interested in art, or those who come from a certain type of background, they think, well, I could never be a lawyer in the City, because I just don’t fit that brief. And my view has always been well, there is no kind of, you know, these are, these are ideas that we have in our head, there’s no reason a lawyer needs to look and feel as it were in a particular way. Anybody can do anything as long as you’re passionate about it. But yeah.

Gary Crotaz 18:20
I think that’s amazing. And it’s such a powerful message that, that I think comes across so well. There’s something very authentic about the way you describe that and the fact that you don’t compartmentalise for other people, I think that’s important. You know, and I’ve done the same, I think people are always a little bit shocked when I was in the corporate world, how open I was about the dancing that I did, and I would sometimes, I remember, a day I went to, I don’t know, a corporate training day, and I wore some dancing trousers. So ballroom dancing trousers are baggier than your normal trousers, because there’s something about the line as you move, and I was wearing those. And somebody said, You’re wearing really weird trousers! And I was like, No, I’m just wearing my trousers. But actually, it was something, it was like, because they’re so used to people thinking that they need to set themselves in a box for a certain role, to give a certain impression, to make people feel comfortable around them. And I think it’s a really powerful message to say, Be who you are. And everyone else has got to deal with how they how they think about that. But you’re very clear in who you are. I hear that coming across very strongly.

Serena Kern-Libera 19:27
Yeah. And as I say, I think it’s really important. And, you know, we all talk about the importance of diversity. And I think for me, the real, the bit that’s really valuable about diversity is diversity of thought and being able to think differently and being able to embrace people. And I say embrace, it’s not just tolerate, and I think there’s a big difference between tolerating somebody who’s different and embracing their differences, and I think we all need to learn to embrace people because of their differences.

Gary Crotaz 20:04
I love it. I love it. So we’ve talked a bit about the law. And we’ve talked a little bit about pop music. So tell me a bit more about the social enterprise. I know you started this Discover2Dream. And you talked a little bit about that. But tell me more about where that came from.

Serena Kern-Libera 20:19
So Discover2Dream is the kind of initiative that I set up with schools. I became a school governor. This was, I’m thinking now, probably five years ago, five and a half years ago. And that’s because the opportunity came about, I didn’t know what a school governor was, if I’m to be honest. But I knew that I came from the sort of traditional kind of Indian school system, and I was really interested in learning about the school system here. So the opportunity came about, I said, Oh, so I don’t have to be a parent to be a school governor. And they said, No, actually, we really value people who don’t have any association with the schools. So I became a school governor. And that’s how I started getting interested in schools and came across some students, absolutely loved interacting with them. Because I think you learn so much from young people, they just think, I mean they have, they are just free, I think in a way that adults sometimes aren’t to speak their mind. And at the time as well, my music manager had said to me, There is an initiative, which is looking for young artists to go into schools and to perform their music. So why don’t you do that, because that’s a great way for you to kind of build up a little fan base as well amongst the school population. So I started doing that. And I said to him, I really love performing, but I would also really like to talk about my career path, because that’s another big part of me. So why don’t we combine the two? Why don’t I do it a little bit differently to other artists? Why don’t I do the performance, but I’ll also talk about my career path. And that went down a treat, I have to say, because the students never expected somebody who comes from such a kind of straight-laced corporate background to then say, actually, I’m working with Ms Banks, who was a big rapper. In fact, she’s doing very well for herself. So I started getting a lot of requests to go into schools. And it was at that stage I decided, okay, this is, this is a bit much for me to take on, on my own. But actually, I think it is really important that we get young female role models into schools to speak with students. And that’s how this idea of Discover2Dream came up. So I basically called up friends of mine and said, You’re interesting. You have an interesting background, I think you would love doing this. And, you know, the response was great. And we started this initiative. It’s been going for a while now, we’ve been into a number of schools. And yeah, it’s, it’s just something that I derive a great amount of pleasure from.

Gary Crotaz 23:35
I’m not quite sure how you fit all this stuff in in 168 hours in a week, as well as sleep and everything else that you that you need to do. And it’s interesting, I mean, we were talking before, before we started recording about so how this comes then to your Unlock Moment. So talk to me a little bit about how you got to this place where you, where you figured out how to put this all together.

Serena Kern-Libera 23:59
So Gary, I would say my, there have been a few Unlock Moments along my journey. But a fairly big one came when I set up D2D Records. Because I have, like I say I’ve got my my day job. I have been an artist, recording artist for a while. My music is doing really well. And you know that the Spotify streaming numbers were very healthy, which was great. I was doing work with the schools. But one day, someone in my music team actually said to me, Well, Serena, you know, you’ve got, you’ve got all of this. Why don’t you set up a record label? And I thought, well, I didn’t know what to say! And I thought, and my, and my immediate reaction was, Oh, but I just don’t have the time. And that’s going to, you know, I’m already quite stretched, I’m already working non-stop pretty much. I’m not sure I have the time to take this on. And that was my kind of immediate reaction to that. But you know, I never, I am one who will never close down an opportunity. And when somebody puts something to me, I like to think about it. I don’t like to say no and then just leave it at that. And I do like to challenge myself. So I took that away and I thought about it. And I kind of sat down and I thought, Well, I’ve always had a portfolio career as some would describe it, which are lots of strands. But I thought, well, maybe this is a way of connecting all of those things. And the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. And then I thought, well, you know, you start thinking, Well, how much work is this actually going to take? And is there, are there efficiencies here? And you know, how do we manage this? And actually I decided, well, why not just go for it? And we’ll see what happens. Because I couldn’t come up with enough reasons for not doing it, so seemed to be a lot of reasons for doing it. Not enough reasons for not doing it!

Gary Crotaz 26:19
That sounds like a very lawyer-y way of thinking about it, considering all the, all the worst-case scenarios, and then deciding that there aren’t enough.

Serena Kern-Libera 26:26
Exactly!

Gary Crotaz 26:27
What was the… Bring us right into that moment of when you, when you went from, I’m thinking about it, I’m exploring it, I’m running the numbers, whatever it is, to, I want to do it. What was that moment? Do you remember?

Serena Kern-Libera 26:43
It… So I love, I love to go on long walks and thinking, What do I do? Is this something I want to do? Is this the road I want to go down? Is this… You know, as I say, you weigh up the pros and the cons. The main con that I could see was one of timing. But that’s never, I don’t think that’s ever a good reason not to try something. And like I say, you then just have to work out ways of creating efficiencies. And I’ve got, I’ve managed to get a great team behind me, who helps me with, with, with the label. And I thought that on the pro side was being able to help young artists and I have seen so many young artists out there who are extremely talented, but just do not have the funding, do not have the connections to be able to get their music out there. And to be able to say that I helped even one artist and this was my thinking, you know I could set up the label. And even if I helped one artist to be something that they wouldn’t have been able to be without my backing. I mean, you know, you think about it, well, that’s something, that’s something I would be really proud to say. And that’s something I would be proud to say to my children one day. And I thought, well, if you balance that with the cons, I think I should just go for it! So that was that was my Unlock Moment, it was kind of like well, you kind of, you think forward and think to what, what the possibilities are with, with whatever the project is that you’re trying to do. And, yeah, it seemed a no brainer, then to me. And I also thought, you know, after all of these years of gathering the experience as an artist, knowing the corporate and legal side of things, I was just in such a good position to do this. And I thought there are not that many other people who are in that position. So it would be a shame to not do it.

Gary Crotaz 28:55
And it’s interesting, I can hear when you’re describing that there was a time when there were a lot of factors that you’re weighing up, a lot of pros, a lot of cons and then – but it was a no brainer. And so what happened for you, once you got to that place of thinking, this is a no brainer? What changed for you in the way it felt in your head?

Serena Kern-Libera 29:16
It was a moment of elation. I think before that, when I kind of, when I was still considering and still wondering whether this was the right thing to do. And, and again, I think we as people can sometimes put a lot of hurdles up in our own heads and procrastinate and then you think of all the reasons you shouldn’t be doing something. And I kind of, it just felt a little bit sad really, but once I thought okay, well I’m just gonna go ahead, I’m gonna do it, see where it gets to me. I just felt happy. And then I knew well this is the right thing to do. Clearly, this is what I should be doing. But yeah, and since then, it’s just been an incredible journey. And it’s not even been that long. But I feel we’ve already achieved quite a bit, which is, which is great.

Gary Crotaz 30:09
So bring to life, so what happened next? And where are you at now with with the label?

Serena Kern-Libera 30:15
So I have a really good team that I’m working with. I have a guy called Kwame, who runs the urban music seminars in the UK, which is, it gets together a lot of young artists, I met him through one of the seminars actually that I attended. And he’s kind of the face of the seminars, and you get people from the music industry, you get people from, well, you get labels in as well, you get people from radio in and they kind of speak with young aspiring artists, you know, about how to, how to kind of go on the path to being a recorded musician with their music out there, you know, published on Spotify or whatever. And through these seminars, a lot of young, aspiring artists send Kwame through their demos. And he then through that basically said to me that I’ve got a demo for an artist I think you will be interested in. She is also of Tamil heritage, so similar to me, although Sri Lankan Tamil. Based in London, really, really talented. And I think you guys would work well together. So that’s how I met Pritt, who is the first artist I’ve signed, I saw in her a phenomenal amount of talent. And I’m just so proud, I guess, to be able to support somebody like that. So listen to one of her demos, loved it. And we are working now to sort of release that track, and do a music video and do all the PR and everything behind that. So it’s great to be able to kind of work with her and take her on that journey. I remember when we signed the label agreement, she was really excited and said to me, do you mind if I bring along my mum and my sister and, and to me, it was just, it was so sweet. But also it was so, it’s so wonderful, I guess to be able to, to be able to support somebody with something that in their life is so important to them. So that was just, that was a great moment for me, actually.

Gary Crotaz 32:42
And what have you learned about yourself from that experience going through that journey and creating the label?

Serena Kern-Libera 32:50
I think what I have learnt about myself is probably just, just how much pleasure I derive I guess from seeing others achieve what, achieve their potential. I hadn’t realised, I call it maternal, I don’t know, I’ve always been very competitive. I’ve always been a high achiever. So I got the highest GCSE grades in the whole of India, but I hadn’t really appreciated just how much, how happy it would make me to see somebody else achieve their potential and be a part of that journey with them. And I think that’s really, yeah, but that’s taught me something about myself I didn’t, I didn’t know.

Gary Crotaz 33:38
I think it’s really interesting, because I can hear in your story all the way through, there’s always been this drive to make a difference for other people. But now, in marrying all of that together, all the different elements together, is something very powerful. And so, you know, when you think about your own journey, and you look back, you know, to that journey so far, and you were, you know, going to give advice to other people who were thinking about maybe they’re balancing various different strands in the way that you were, what advice might you give to other people about how to handle all of that?

Serena Kern-Libera 34:15
I think what I would say to people is, Just go for it. I think if you have an idea or a passion that you feel that you want to pursue, I think just go for it. I think a lot of people, and I’m guilty of this as well, you kind of as, and I’ve spoken about this before, you put barriers up in your own head and you come up with all the reasons for not doing something, and you procrastinate about stuff and then don’t end up doing it. I think just go for it. If it doesn’t work out, analyse and see why it hasn’t worked out and then kind of maybe try and make some tweaks to how you approached the issue. But I think there’s nothing worse than looking back and thinking, I had a really good idea. But I was just too scared to, to go for it. So that’s what I would say to people.

Gary Crotaz 35:14
That’s amazing. And I also, when you hear that piece around identity and not being defined by other people, that piece you were talking about before, where, you know, in any environment, people are trying to put you in a box, but you have your own box. And that’s something that I think comes through very strongly in your story.

Serena Kern-Libera 35:34
Yeah, I, I really don’t like the idea of boxes, Gary! I think, I think you just have to be yourself, and people should appreciate you for being yourself. And we all have a creative side, we all have a side of us that will be analytical or whatever. And you just you kind of embrace that and be yourself and, and exactly as you said, you don’t try and fit into a particular box, just because you think that’s what people want you to do. And I’ll tell you a story. When I, when I joined my law firm, I was quite nervous about people at the beginning finding out that I was doing pop music. And that, you know, I tried to keep it quiet for a long time. An article then came out in the Law Society Gazette, so everybody then ended up finding out. And I remember being called into one of the partners’ offices one day. And I didn’t know why I’d been called in. And he had a copy of the, the magazine in his hand, and I could see my photo on it. And he said, what’s this about? And I thought he was going to tell me off. And I said, Oh, well, you know, yeah, I kind of do pop music on the side. And he said, Well, that’s absolutely great! Why didn’t you tell me about it before? And we should have a charity event for our clients! And will you perform? And you know, this was, it was a great moment for me because I realised then that actually all this, this, these ideas about how I thought at the time a proper corporate lawyer should be, it was just all in my head. So that was a great moment for me. And that was, maybe that was another Unlock Moment along the way, actually.

Gary Crotaz 37:31
I mean, you’ve got to be the only pop star whose big breakthrough has been not in NME or Rolling Stone magazine, but in the Law Society Gazette! I really like that story. So as we’re coming, you know, well into 2022 now, what is the things that are ahead for you? What are you looking forward to over the coming months and years?

Serena Kern-Libera 37:49
I think, I wouldn’t really like, so the record label as I say still very much in its infancy. So I would like to see where that goes, how many young artists I’m able to support. I mean, I’ve created this very much as a social enterprise. So I’m not, I’m not expecting to make a big business out of it. But I think my idea with it was a) to to support artists who wouldn’t have otherwise been able to get the support they needed. But also, I feel like the music industry in many ways is not as artist-centred as it should be. Which is why actually my business model is a little bit different to the traditional record label. I don’t sign artists, I sign songs, so the artist is free to go on and do whatever they want to do, collaborate with whoever else they want to collaborate with. And just be themselves as an artist, I don’t try and control them as an artist in any way. So I don’t know, Gary, hopefully, somebody will will pick up on this and say, maybe, maybe the music industry. I mean, this is in my own small way. I’m trying to make a change, but maybe we can be a small example for how things can be done better. I mean, that would be great.

Gary Crotaz 39:10
Amazing. Fantastic. And where can people find out more about you and the various things that you’re doing?

Serena Kern-Libera 39:17
So on social media. I’m @SerenaKern, on Twitter and on Instagram. Segiri is my artist name, if you want to listen to some of my tracks you can find me on Spotify or any other music streaming service. And Pritt is the artist I’ve just signed. So do go and check her music out as well.

Gary Crotaz 39:44
Fantastic. And how do you spell Pritt?

Serena Kern-Libera 39:48
P-R-I-T-T.

Gary Crotaz 39:51
Fantastic. Serena, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Serena it was marrying her creative vision, her corporate drive and her desire to create opportunities for others through launching her own record label. She has learned how to find balance without compromise. Knowing herself, her ambitions and her goals helps her to bring her best to all her endeavours. She is a true inspiration to young women and girls and someone I know we’re going to see much more of in the years ahead. Serena, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Serena Kern-Libera 40:28
And thanks for having me Gary, it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Gary Crotaz 42:56
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:00
Hi, my name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly, where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I am privileged to be joined by California-based coach and self styled strengths. encourager, Wendy Willard, I’m a huge fan of Wendy’s philosophy around strengths and needs, and have been co-moderating online conversations with her for much of the last year. Wendy has spent the last two decades working on initiatives that improve wellbeing. Personally that’s brought her deep in the trenches of child welfare, initially as a mum to two daughters, then also as a foster parent and adoption advocate across three US states and Nicaragua. Professionally, it’s meant she uses her Bachelor of Fine Arts in design, and Masters in Organisational Leadership, to help mission driven organisations and families strengthen their teams to thrive. Wendy, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Wendy Willard 1:52
Thank you, Gary, I’m so excited to chat with you today.

Gary Crotaz 1:55
Thank you for joining. So start out with telling us a little bit about your story and how you got to where you are today.

Wendy Willard 2:01
Well, how much time do you have?

Gary Crotaz 2:04
We’ve got a while! Give us the the five minute version and we can dig in!

Wendy Willard 2:08
Yeah, so recently, I’ve been thinking about what is the thread that kind of combines or if there’s a thread that you could pull that would pull on everything that I’ve done in the you know, my adult life, I think that that really is wellbeing. I think that even if I go back 20 years, I can think of some of the projects that I worked on as a designer. And I was always interested in how we could improve wellbeing through our work, through the work that I was, whether it was a web design project or branding or marketing for a certain company or initiative. That’s just been something that really interested me. And I was mostly doing that as an individual contributor, you know, and art director, creative director, graphic designer, web designer, that type of work. And then about seven years ago, which corresponded with turning 40 I decided to go back to school, my daughter made fun of me and said it was a very midlife kind of crisis moment. And I said, I am going to study organisational leadership, because I had come to realise that creatives have a different way of looking at the world. And I loved, I’ve always loved being in a room of creatives, it’s just super fun. I, you won’t be surprised to know I have high Ideation on Gallup’s CliftonStrengths assessment. So I just thrived in situations like that. And I also found though, that creative people think, we just think differently, and when you put us in a position of leadership, that means that we we approach problems in a, in a different way than someone who has a straight MBA for example. And so I said, you know, I’d love to put a little teeth to my education, my on the job training, so to speak and figure out why, why is that? Why do creatives approach the world different, approach problems different, and that was where I was first introduced to CliftonStrengths as well, was in that leadership programme that I did, that Masters level programme.

Gary Crotaz 4:36
And when you’re in that, so why, why organisational leadership, so what was going on for you that you thought that’s, you know of all the things I can do, that’s where I want to go?

Wendy Willard 4:46
Yeah, for sure. I because I definitely, several people said why not just get an MBA and, and I said, Well, I’m not as interested in what it looks like to kind of structure the business. or, you know, the accounting and all of that. I’m more interested in, what does it take to build a great team? What does it look like to structure an organisation so that the team, so that you really get that one plus one equals three type mentality, right? That, that we’re greater than the sum of our parts together. So I was interested in that, at the time that I went back to school, I was actually working at a large church in the Bible Belt of, of the US in southern Calif…, sorry, in South Carolina. I now live in southern California, but I was in South Carolina at the time. And I, my role was a creative director and communications director. And so the team there was about 55 people at the time. And I found, you know, I realised once again that the creatives and the communication people, you really are, that’s a hub for most organisations, right, and you have a piece, your hand is in a little bit of everything, and you tend to, to get to understand very cross-functionally what’s happening across the organisation. And so it really inspired me this idea of, hey, I want to understand this better. I want to, I want to move more into leadership and I want to do so with… Yeah, with with the education to kind of backup what I had learned on the job.

Gary Crotaz 6:34
And what do you think a great team looks like? What are the characteristics of a great team, when you’re imagining that, that setup that you’re helping to create?

Wendy Willard 6:43
Yeah, well, it’s, it’s funny, because you, you kind of teased it in, in my bio, but one of the things I’ve been working on, I mean, really, for the last, like, 12 years is this exploration of needs? What do we need to thrive as a human? What do we need to thrive as humans in teams? What does that look like? And so I think that my answer is going to be the same for or very similar for individuals as it is for teams. So I think the individuals inside of the teams need to have their needs met, in order to thrive, and then they need to work with each other well, right, trust one another, appreciate the best of one another in order for the team to then thrive. And thankfully, I don’t have, you don’t have to take my word on that, because Gallup has, you know, created a, they’ve done a tonne of research and created a lot of resources. And they’re not the only ones. You know, there’s plenty of places where you can see that this is, in fact, true.

Gary Crotaz 7:54
And one of the reasons why I was so keen to have you on the podcast was because I really liked your take on needs, which, which describes what you’re talking about now, what are the, what are the needs that people should have in when, when they’re individually and as a team working really effectively? But also, I know you think about what it looks like when you, when you don’t have those needs. And I’m reflecting, so for listeners who have also listened to the recent episode that I’ve just published with Dr. Mark Goulston, who, who is a psychiatrist and talks about a similar thing, he talks about what it feels like when your needs are not met, in a very specific sort of environment in psychiatry. I think that’s a really interesting way to look at it, because all of the textbooks are filled with what it should be. But actually, when you go and work with organisations, and I’ve done this a lot, you see a lot of teams that are exhibiting and describing the opposite of that. So tell me a bit more about the way you think about needs.

Wendy Willard 8:53
Yeah, so probably to, to tell, to describe it, I have to go back a little to explain kind of where I came to this because most people, a lot of listeners will have heard about Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. That’s definitely something that is taught in schools and a lot of cases in university. And so people hear about that, and they understand, okay, yeah, we all have these basic needs. One of the things that I found out, interestingly, is that Maslow’s research was done at a time when you mostly studied men, white men, that were of a certain socioeconomic class. If you wanted to look at what it took for people to thrive, you would, you know, look at that type of that group of people. And as it turns out, I was a foster parent in Maryland, starting it in 2008. And the type of kids that were coming into my home were almost the exact opposite of the type of people that Maslow was researching when he was coming up with his Hierarchy of Needs. We’ve mostly parented at this point now we are we currently have our 25th teenager in our home. And the first two dozen of those were mostly teenage girls. And we now have a young man staying with us who, yeah, a young man who just turned 18 recently, so I’m really excited to have some. So you see the other side of it as well. And what does it look like to parent a boy, but, but anyway, we had all these teenage girls living with us, certainly not all at the same time. But over the course of several years, I’m just noticing, you know, they had a lot of the same behaviours that most of us would classify as bad. And social workers would classify, they would say, Oh, they’re dysregulated, you know, whenever they would be behaving in a way that wasn’t accepted, you know, normally as kind of normal behaviour, Well they’re dysregulated. And that, while that describes their behaviour, it’s not something that anybody let alone a teenage girl wants to be referred to as. Right? And you don’t walk around saying, Oh, I’m feeling dysregulated today, it, it just any … it has ‘dys’ at the start of it, right? It just, it’s, it’s a bad word like it makes it, makes you feel yucky. And so I started, my solution to that was, well, let’s come up with another word, let’s just make up our own word that is different, that you feel okay with using. And, and so that sort of set me on this journey of what would … you know, in the beginning, we just made up whatever words, you know, like you do with your kids, you just say whatever. But eventually I started, the more that we had kids like this in our home, and the more that I considered my own needs as a human, and what does it look like when that’s not met? The more I wanted to really come up with a real word, you know, something that actually meant something. So that was the impetus of me creating this word, SLATHY, which you’ve heard me refer to a couple of times before. That’s spelled S-L-A-T-H-Y. And it’s actually an acronym.

Gary Crotaz 12:32
So unpack that for us, what’s in SLATHY?

Wendy Willard 12:35
So yes, so each of the letters in the acronym, well, the first five letters stand for the opposite of what it looks like for a need to be met. And, and I, I basically, I did a tonne of research, I asked a tonne of people, including a lot of these kids that lived with us. And, you know, I said, What do you need, really to, to have optimal wellbeing, and I found that they could all fit into five buckets. And so the first one is Worth. And this is what we put in this bucket, your purpose, your value, your plans and your hope for the future. Right? And so the opposite of Worth is Shame, I think. This is one thing, one way that it comes out the opposite of that. So the S in Shame is the S in SLATHY. So that’s the first one. And then the second one is Love. And I always like to say that the ABCs of Love are acceptance and belonging and connection. And as I learned through these kids in my home, and so many other people, you know, that doesn’t have to come from your family of origin. You can find acceptance, belonging connection in many other places. And so, but the opposite of Love is, is Loneliness. And so that’s the L in SLATHY. And then the third one is Trust. And this is one that I really think we don’t give enough credence to in, in our culture because our culture is based on mutual trust. And I think a lot of us have seen in the last two years what happens when trust breaks down. And, and yet we don’t, we don’t often think about it. It’s just so in, in you know, it’s, it’s just so woven into the fabric of our culture that we don’t take a step back and recognise when trust is broken, how much that impacts us. So in this category I put safety, shelter and security can you trust for those things for example? And so the opposite of Trust is one one opposite of trust is fear. So being Afraid the A is, is in SLATHY. So we’ve got the Shame, Loneliness, Afraid. And then the fourth one is Rest. And so inside of this, I put, you know, physical, emotional, spiritual peace and rest. And so the opposite of that, obviously is Tired. And so that’s the T in SLATHY. And then the last one is Nourishment. And this is nourishment for your body specifically in the form of food, water and physical touch. And so the opposite of that one is Hungry, and that’s the H. So that gave me S L A T H. And then I grew up learning that, I grew up learning A E I O U and sometimes Y right. So I kind of, I kind of added that here that sometimes there’s a Y and the Y stands for Yucky. And this has a dual purpose. Maybe there’s something else maybe there’s an illness going on in your life. And so that makes you feel lucky, yucky temporarily. And also can make you feel SLATHY. But also, what I found with so many of the kids that have stayed with us is they know that their needs aren’t being met, but they don’t know yet which bucket that it goes into. And so the the Y is like this catch-all that it can sit there until they feel comfortable talking about or even just admitting to themselves or understanding what of my other needs haven’t been met. So that’s the that’s a quick version of where SLATHY came from. So I guess I should stop for a sec there.

Gary Crotaz 16:48
I love it. And I want to talk about it because it’s such a powerful and simple tool. But that idea that you flip around something that is describing what it, what it is when it’s all great to let’s have a conversation about how it really feels because it isn’t all great at the moment. I think it’s so simple. But it’s easy to to miss that. And as you described, it was a language that you didn’t have when you were looking at things like Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs, which which is the opposite. So, so we’re here to talk about an Unlock Moment. So, or moments, but with this, this sort of flash of clarity, at some point in your journey, when you suddenly knew this is the right path ahead. And I wondered whether you can bring to life, you know, where in your journey did you have that moment when you suddenly knew this is it? This is what I want to be doing? This is where I’m going? This is what it’s about for me?

Wendy Willard 17:42
Yeah, I think moments is correct. There, there’s a few, but one that comes to mind is really when this became personal for me. So, you know, it was easy I think in the beginning for me to look at this and think, Okay, I’m creating a way to talk about what happens to these other kids, you know, these, I was never separated from my family of origin as a young child. So I, I wasn’t, it was easy for me to say it’s them and not me, right? I think there have been a lot of situations though, in the last decade, especially where I’ve realised that it’s me, too, that all of us, you know, have this issue. And one of the first times was when we were preparing to move to Central America. And we had decided to go there for a year. And so we were renting our house furnished, but we had to get rid of all of our personal stuff inside of the house. And because we were flying, we could only take 50 pound bags, you know, essentially two per person and a carry on, as you know, if you’re flying anywhere so and then we were gonna put some other stuff into storage. And when we were, well I don’t know about you, but anytime I move house, it, do you always have those junk drawers like I do, where essentially at the end of that when you’ve been packing for however many days or weeks, you just pull the junk drawer and you dump it in a box? And then when you get to the new house, you just dump the box into the new junk drawer, right? Like and you…

Gary Crotaz 19:20
Or leave it in the box!

Wendy Willard 19:22
Or leave it in the box, right? You don’t ever really go through it. Or at least I had moved enough times that that was my process. And I couldn’t do that anymore. I realised oh there’s, that’s ridiculous. And so, all over the house, I found these proverbial junk drawers and started creating, I started a big sorting facility essentially. And through that process, I evacuated from my house 250 bags or boxes worth of stuff, you know that, that we had previously deemed, you know, required for life. And now, we either sold it or gave it away or put it in the trash or whatever. And you know what my biggest kind of wake up moment there? Well, one of the biggest wake up moments was I found 30 toenail clippers. 30. Okay?!

Gary Crotaz 20:22
You didn’t have that many toes?

Wendy Willard 20:27
No, we didn’t even, yes, we were family of four, like, Okay, wait. So we do have that many toes, I guess. But anyway, I never thought of it that way!

Gary Crotaz 20:35
You don’t need a clipper for each one!

Wendy Willard 20:37
It was ridiculous. Because toenail clippers were the type of thing where it’s like, you can’t find them anymore. And you just it’s like, as my husband says, it’s just $1 go buy it. Right? And, but, but this was kind of, I realised that this is the way that, at least the culture that I, that I live in, this is what we do. We just, we just collect stuff. And I started to consider really what was going on with that, you know, like, why was I doing that? And I realised a couple of things. And one of them was that I think buying stuff for my kids was a way to show them how much I loved them. Right? But I realised that that was just setting them up to believe that you know, happiness and love equal stuff. So that was not good. But then I also we used to think that buying stuff on sale, even if I didn’t need it at that moment, was this indication of my thriftiness as a wife and mother, as if I should be given some sort of prize, right? But I realised that I was just contributing to waste, and that I should be more resourceful with what we already had. Right? So I also just, you know, to be vulnerable there, I think I recognised a tendency towards trying to earn love and acceptance. And so all of that helped me sort of bring it into perspective, that it wasn’t just these kids that lived with us temporarily who struggled with their worth, or their love, or trusting people or, or rest or nourishment. But it was me too. And I think it’s, it’s all of us.

Gary Crotaz 22:35
And what was the transition from, I recognise, I’ve got an awful lot of stuff that I need to not hold on to, to, it makes me think something about my needs and the way I want to live my life going forward. And something a bit deeper, was that transition between stuff and meaning of stuff, do you think?

Wendy Willard 23:00
Well, and not everybody is doing this or going to do this, but for me, it meant living in a Central American country for three years, for almost three years, right? I, I took myself out of, of that kind of stuff environment where I didn’t have access to Target or Walmart or Amazon. And I had to be very intentional about what I purchased and why I purchased it. And so, you know, it was one of those, I joked often that I said, I can’t move back to the States until I learned how to live within five miles of a Target and not go there on a regular basis. You know, not go there for just fun. So I, you know, I had to, I think, for me, I needed to be taken out of it in order to learn how to appreciate it, I fully, I fully recognise that that’s not something that everybody can do or is going to do. But that was just my, my journey with that.

Gary Crotaz 24:05
I mean, I think and it resonates because I mean, two things I think about when you’re, when you’re saying that one is, in the pandemic, I think with a lot of people staying at home more than they were before and not travelling in to, to the office, not travelling into work. And that also means that you’re not doing a lot of those other things that you might do when you’re travelling. So, you know, having relatively expensive lunch, you know, somewhere or, you know, going to a relatively expensive night out because you’re with your work colleagues, all those kinds of things. And I think for a lot of people, I’ve certainly talked to a lot of people who have had that realisation that they didn’t need to do that to be happy in their life. But it’s nice to do it sometimes. But the other thing that’s making me think of was actually last night so I live just north of London here in the UK, and there was a really major power cut last night for about two or three hours that took out a large chunk of the whole region north of London, so thousands and thousands of homes, lost power, lighting, water and mobile phone signal. And it wasn’t like you could walk down the road to the next street where there was power and get an mobile phone signal, there wasn’t mobile phone signal for miles and miles and miles around. And I, and I was, and I was walking up the street because I was due to record a podcast actually in New Zealand, of all places. And I couldn’t email them to let them know that I wasn’t coming on the recording because I didn’t have anything. And I suddenly realised that what it feels like to be dependent on a mobile phone signal, when you don’t have one, you can’t have one. So it really resonates. And I do think that a lot of people have had that sort of recognition of the difference between what felt like a need, but actually isn’t a need. And that’s, that’s your toenail clippers, it feels like you desperately need some right now. But actually, you can get away with not having some for a while. And why, why were you in Nicaragua?

Wendy Willard 26:04
We, well, initially, we just, it was, people think we’re a little crazy. But we felt like it was something we should do, we felt like it was, is something that, you know, God was calling us to do. We didn’t go with a particular mission or ministry group or anything like that, we just decided we were gonna go for a year initially and see what happened. See what you know, where that led us. And we did end up connecting with a lot of people, we realised that there was this massive need that wasn’t being met. And that was for kids being adopted from, at the time from Nicaragua into another country. In order for me, for example, from the US to go to that country and adopt a child, I would actually have to live there for several years, not, sorry, not several years, several months. So anywhere from three to six months, you’re essentially fostering the child in the country, before you can take them back to your country, your home country. So there are, you know, maybe two dozen, I think countries that still require that. And what happens so often is families are living in hotels for that time period. And you can imagine a mom, maybe it’s a mom and a dad that go initially they they meet this child, often they are, you know, maybe anywhere from three to 12 years old. So they’re speaking, but they don’t speak English. And eventually the dad goes back to the US. And this mom is left there with one or more kids who don’t speak her language. And she doesn’t speak theirs. And it’s really hard. And you know, imagine trying to live in a hotel room doing that, not having transportation and, and so we we started coming across these people and realised there was a huge need that if we wanted the families to actually go home intact, that they needed a lot of support. So we started an adoption support ministry there that we, we eventually did shut down a couple of years ago when Nicaragua closed to international adoptions, or at least to adoptions from the US. So we ran that for a couple of years.

Gary Crotaz 28:25
Yeah. And you were there with your own children as well?

Wendy Willard 28:28
We were, yes, we were there with our girls for about two and a half years. And then we left the organisation in charge of a Nicaraguan family. And they ran it until we had to close the programme.

Gary Crotaz 28:45
And then coming back to the US having had that experience of you and your whole family there for a significant period of time. How did it change your perspective when you came back into American culture, American society?

Wendy Willard 28:59
Well, yeah, the reverse culture shock, I think was actually worse than if I can say that. Yeah, I think it was worse. Something very interesting happened in the years between 2012 and 2015. And there’s been a bunch of research done on this, that … that during that timeframe was when the smartphone became kind of ubiquitous in the US. And, and so when we before we left, my kids were in fourth grade and sixth grade before we left and they were still very much they didn’t have phones, they were going to their friend’s house after school, playing in the street, visiting friends for sleepovers on the weekends and whatnot. And then we come back to the US and they’re doing, you know, end of seventh grade and end of 10th grade, and the world had changed. Kids, everybody had a phone, kids got together, mostly online, or they would get together in homes and they would sit on their devices next to each other and play games that way. And they didn’t even really do sleepovers as much it was, it was a very different world that then we at least socially, for our girls, it was very different than when we had left. And so even just looking at like worth and love and trust, and how, you know, our kids needs were, really struggled when, when we came back, and what that has looked like I think, for all of us in the last 10 years, looking at how social media, and the smartphone, how that really impacts our ability to have our needs met.

Gary Crotaz 30:50
So you had to, I’m hearing I think that you had to work quite intentionally to reintegrate in a, in a kind of way, particularly for your, for your girls, when when they came back having been out of the country for that particular window of time.

Wendy Willard 31:02
Yeah, it was, it was really interesting, I think we saw it. Think about when you, if you have a niece or a nephew, and you don’t see them that often as, certainly not as often as their parents do. And then you see them after a couple of months, and you’re Oh, they’ve grown or you notice what has changed, I think we were better able to notice what had changed, because we had stepped out of the culture for almost three years, and came back in whereas it was a very slow change for everybody that stayed here during that time.

Gary Crotaz 31:34
And going through that experience for you and thinking about this whole philosophy around needs and the work you’re doing with it. What do you think you’ve learned about yourself from going through that experience do you think?

Wendy Willard 31:48
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I still, when I facilitate team sessions around this, and when I talk with individuals, and, and I love to work with families, you know, I always ask, Which of these areas do you think is the strongest for you? And which of the areas do you struggle the most? And, and so I’ve of course, had to take a hard look at that for myself. And I think it’s, it’s, for me, it’s been a lot of the worth, how have I tried to earn my value, rather than understanding just, you know, my innate value as a human, and, you know, accepting that, versus trying to earn it has been something that I’ve definitely struggled with throughout my life.

Gary Crotaz 32:41
And what I really resonate with and I hear in you is that you are, anyway, a very reflective person, very self-aware person, but you’ve gone through these particular experiences as well that have caused you to spend a lot of time reflecting on yourself as a foster parent, you know, travelling and, and taking your family with you, and so on. So what, if you were to give advice to other people, I mean, not that people necessarily want to spend time giving advice, but if you were sort of to reflect on some of the things you’ve learned that you think other, other people might find helpful. What do you think comes through from this focus on on needs?

Wendy Willard 33:18
Yeah. So, you know, one of the other kind of aha moments or Unlock Moments, as you call them came, shortly after COVID hit. I had been teaching this concept of these needs and SLATHY, I had been teaching that mostly to foster parents and adoptive parents up to that point. You know, just, that was my application of it. Mostly, that was how I had come across it and developed it. And so that was where I was teaching it. And then after COVID hit, I started hearing from others from some of those parents who said, you know, the world needs this right now. Like, I, you know, someone said, my workplace in particular, I’m, I’m noticing when we get on these Zoom calls, everyone’s SLATHY. But but no one knows how to talk about it. And if you ask your colleagues, well, how are you doing? The, the number one answer that you get is probably well, I’m tired, but I’m okay. You know, and, or just, I’m fine, which we know we’re, you’re not fine when you say you’re fine, right. But, but I, but what I was realising was, again, this is really just widely applicable. And so I started hearing from people saying, my workplace needs this, you know, Could you, could you do a team session with my workplace and that really changed my focus and it broadened my focus here and helped me realise, do, do foster kids need a way to talk about their, their, their needs, in, you know, with dignity and privacy. Yes. But so do people in workplaces? We all do, right? We want a way to come into work, and to be able to share with a colleague that, you know, I’m not doing great. But when we use the word, SLATHY, it allows you to have, to maintain privacy, you don’t have to tell them which of your needs isn’t being met. Right. It’s just I’m feeling right now I’m feeling like I have unmet needs. And, and it also gives you a way to talk about it that’s really neutral. It’s, you know, it’s not like, I mean, I don’t even think we have a good way to do this right now. So I don’t even know how to correlate it, but, but it allows people to do so to talk about this in a workplace setting, in a way that I think maintains dignity and privacy and honour.

Gary Crotaz 35:58
And I was reflecting on some of the people that I’ve been working with recently in coaching, and I think that piece about ubiquity is really important, because you see it in all sorts of different environments, workplaces, entrepreneurs, artists, performers, you know, you’re saying, you know, in the fostering community that you’re experiencing it, and, and it’s also independent of seniority. So I think there’s a lot of people who are in very senior roles who are used to looking at the people around them and seeing this veneer of coping and managing because that’s what senior leaders look like, sometimes because they are, but sometimes, because they’re really practised at looking that way. Even when they’re not feeling that way. And particularly at the moment. I was talking to somebody just today actually about, some of the challenge is in, you know I do quite a lot of work in the retail industry and some of the challenges in retail, that there are so many things that are completely outside the control of senior leadership. And the thing that you’re most certain of is that however good it used to look, it’ll never look that good ever again, so the best you can possibly be is almost as good as it used to be. And the worst you can possibly be is way worse than it used to be. And that’s a huge pressure on people actually. And I said to one of my coaches, Just become more aware that probably almost everybody around you is feeling in some way the same. They just won’t say that to you, necessarily. And they won’t necessarily look that way. But it just is true, that you know that conversation is happening all the time.

Wendy Willard 37:37
Yeah. And here’s the irony, right? I’ve asked plenty of people this. So I know this, this is true. We all think that we’re always bringing the best of us to work, right? We think that when we show up at work, we’re showing the Instagrammable version of us, right? And yet, it’s not true. We all know the worst of our colleagues, we see it seep in, it leaks out, right? You know what your colleague looks like when they’re hangry for example, you, we just do! You know what your colleague looks like when they haven’t slept well, the night before. But we don’t talk about this. And what I’m trying, like, my biggest goal in all of this is to help normalise that conversation that we can say guess what? Sometimes the closet is open, so to speak, sometimes my, the worst of me leaks out and shows. Now what are we going to do with that? Right? How can we approach it with compassion with, for one another? How can we have less judgement, because that’s how we’re going to get to the other side of this. That’s how we’re going to actually get to the point where the best of us comes out more often than not.

Gary Crotaz 38:51
It’s such a powerful conversation. I’m so pleased that this is exactly why I wanted you to come on the podcast to give this message I think is a really powerful one. And I think that the SLATHY concept is is brilliant. And I think more people need to hear it and understand it and internalise it and use it. And I think that, that that’s, that’s really, that’s really important. So as we look to the rest of 2022, what, what are the things ahead for you? What do you what are you focusing on?

Wendy Willard 39:15
I don’t know, I think when we talked on Clubhouse in January, and you, I think you asked what is the word of the year or something or maybe it was Dana but I, I have said that this year, my word is curiosity. I’m, I’m really just trying to be open to new things to, to, to explore, to be curious about where all of this takes me. You know, I, I’d love to expand the reach of this, of SLATHY, of, I’d love to have more of these conversations. And I’m, I’m just excited to see where, you know where that takes me.

Gary Crotaz 39:54
Fantastic. And where can people find out more about you?

Wendy Willard 39:57
Well, I did finally register SLATHY.com last year. And there’s a link at the bottom to my strengths work also, which is I call myself the Strengths Encourager as you said. And so that’s thestrengthsencourager.com. And I just want to say that if you if you fill out the little email sign up at the bottom of SLATHY.com, that I will send you some questions you can ask yourself to, to just quickly, or not so quickly, if you want to take more time to do it, but to evaluate those five buckets of needs in your life, and, and to kind of consider where, which ones maybe do I want to work on or focus on?

Gary Crotaz 40:45
Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For Wendy was realising that life is more about fundamental needs than it is about material possessions. Working with foster children and adoption support helped her to find a way to connect with people around those fundamental needs and when they’re not present for you, and to start life changing conversations with people that unlock incredible potential. Wendy, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment.

Wendy Willard 41:15
Oh, it’s been a pleasure. Thanks, Gary.

Gary Crotaz 41:20
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:00
Content warning. This episode of The Unlock Moment podcast discusses suicidal feelings. My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m delighted to be bringing you a really special guest, I know you’re going to enjoy this conversation. Dr. Mark Goulston is a member of Marshall Goldsmith MG100 coaches. That’s pretty much the best of the best in the global coaching community. And he’s a CEO blind spot executive coach, helping them become aware of counterproductive behaviours and correcting them. He was recently named to LeadersHums Power List of the top 200 biggest voices in leadership in 2022. He is the author or co-author of nine books with his book Just Listen being translated into 28 languages and becoming the top book on listening in the world. The HBR Ideacast episode Become A Better Listener, featuring Mark, has been ranked number one for the last six years. Mark also hosts the highly-rated podcast My Wakeup Call, which I was delighted to appear on recently, and is the inventor of Surgical Empathy, an approach that helps people unlock their attachments to limiting beliefs that cause success-limiting behaviours from the inside out of a person. He is also a founding member of the Newsweek expert forum. We didn’t mention he was a doctor, a UCLA Professor of Psychiatry and ALS, and a former FBI and police hostage negotiation trainer. I’ve listened to many episodes of My Wakeup Call and Mark is someone who always dives deep, thinks hard and brings real enlightenment. You already know you’re in good hands. And over the following few minutes, find your favourite chair, take a steer from Mark’s book and Just Listen. Mark it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Dr Mark Goulston 2:44
You know, I was thinking people who speak with a British accent are automatically eloquent. But that was eloquent on steroids, Gary! As one of my mentors, Warren Bennis used to tell me, you know, when people say nice things about you, the best thing is it gives you something to live up to. So I hope I can do that.

Gary Crotaz 3:05
I’m sure you, I’m sure you will. So to start out with telling us a little bit about your story. And a question that I have to kick off is, you’ve done many things and worn many hats in your career. So what of all those things feels like your identity today? And how do you think that’s changed over time?

Dr Mark Goulston 3:23
Well, you know, you mentioned that I do executive coaching, and I do a different kind of executive coaching. Because when I work with my clients, and it’s a crossover from having been a psychotherapist for 40 years, what my clients will say to me is, I can’t hide from you. And I asked them, Is that good? And they will say, it’s not bad, but it’s weird. And then they’ll say, But I hope you never stop being able to do that. Because I’m hidden from everyone, including myself. And I think I learned to do that because one of my specialty areas was suicide prevention. And I want to share three stories that I think are memorable from my, from my past, and one is about how I learned to listen into someone’s mind. Then how I learned to listen into someone’s eyes. And then how I learned to listen into someone’s soul. So the first one, I was a medical student, and we were on rounds, which means I was assembled with a bunch of doctors, there was an attending doctor. There was a resident, there was an intern. There were other medical students. There were specialists, and we were at the Boston Veterans Administration Hospital doing rounds. And I had some challenges in medical school and we probably won’t have time to go into them. But, you know, I, my mind was not in really the best place. And so we were outside Mr. Jones room, that wasn’t his name, but we’ll call him that. And everybody was competing with what to do with Mr. Jones. One person said, I think he needs more X-rays. One person said, I think he needs chemo. One person said, I think he needs surgery. And everybody is saying all these things. I wasn’t saying anything. Because I was intimidated. And then a nurse came over to us and we were outside Mr. Jones room. And she said, didn’t you hear Mr. Jones jumped from the roof last night and he’s in the morgue. It went totally silent. And then I heard a thought or a voice. We’ll just say it’s a thought. I don’t think it was a hallucination. But it was as loud as my voice is right now. And the voice said, Maybe Mr. Jones needed something else. And then the little group shrugged their shoulders, went on to the next room. So fast forward, I actually dropped out of medical school twice and finished and I dropped out, I believe, for untreated depression. And, but when I did come back, I was able to finish my training. And then I also knew that I wanted to become a psychiatrist. Because of that incident with Mr. Jones, where I would, I would listen to between words. And if you listen between words, and you listen into people’s eyes, they tell you a lot. So the second anecdote, there I was in my psychiatry training at UCLA, and I was called up to the cancer ward to okay an order to put one of the patients in restraints, in other words to tie down their arms and legs and give this person a shot of major tranquilliser because he was kicking in the bed and he was pulling at his IVs, he was pulling at the respirator tubing, and, and I was paged to go up there and okay the order, and I go into Mr. Smith’s room, not his name. And his eyes were as big as saucers. And he couldn’t speak because of the respirator tube. And he’s going, eh ah eh ah eh, and I said What? And his eyes are just wide as saucers and he continues eh ah eh ah eh so, and then I put a pencil in his hand, which was strapped down. I said, Write! And it was just scribbled. And so I figured, well, maybe the other doctors are right, maybe he’s just psychotic. And I said, We have to put your arms and legs down because you’re kicking at everything and you’re pulling at the IV and you’re pulling, pulling at everything. And when you calm, and we’ve given you a tranquilliser, when you calm down, we’ll take everything off. And he’s still looking at me with these wide eyes. And so a day later, I was paged by the doctors. And they said, Mr. Smith is up. He’s in his bed, he’s seated. He’s off the respirator. And he told us to page you. So I go into his room, and he’s seated. And as I walked into his room, he grabbed onto my eyes with his eyes. So this is looking into people’s eyes. And he looked at me, and he said, pull up a chair, and he seated me with his eyes. And he wouldn’t let go of my eyes. And then he proceeded to tell me, What I was trying to tell you yesterday is that a piece of the respirator tubing had broken off and was stuck in my throat. And you, and you do know that I will kill myself before I go through something like that again, do you understand me? And he just held on to my eyes. And my eyes got watery with emotion. And I said, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. I understand. So, that told me a little bit about the importance of listening into someone’s eyes. Fast forward, I finished my residency. And one of my mentors is a fellow named Dr. Edwin Shneidman. And he’s one of the top five people who are experts in suicide and suicide prevention. And he referred me a lot of suicidal patients. And I was very fortunate because when I finished my training, a fellowship I was going to go into fell through so I just went out and opened a practice and figured Oh, let’s see if anybody shows up and Dr. Schneidman would be referring me these suicidal patients. And I was fortunate because when I was seated with them, and I learned from Mr. Smith and I would look into their eyes. They were screaming at me in their eyes. And what they were screaming in their eyes is You’re checking boxes, and I’m running out of time. And because I didn’t work in an… if I worked in an institution, I would have to check boxes, because I would have to report to you know, what was the chief complaint? And what was their illness? What was your differential diagnosis, yada, yada, yada. And I did those things. But I had the choice of checking boxes or letting their eyes take me where they needed me to go, kind of what happened with Mr. Smith. And so about that time, one of my patients who I’ll call Nancy, and that wasn’t her name, referred by Dr. Shneidman, she’d made three suicide attempts, had been in the hospital up to one month at a time. And back then you could stay in the hospital that long this is before I started seeing… and, and I saw as an outpatient. And I didn’t think I was making any progress. She didn’t make any eye contact. She wasn’t catatonic but I’d look at her and she’d be looking to the left, to the right. And then, during those times, once a month, I would moonlight in a psychiatric hospital, which means I would cover for the other psychiatrists when they were away on the weekend. And I would do, I would admit patients or I’d go to the wards, and I would order medications if one of the patients was acting up. And sometimes you could do that and not sleep for 24 hours. And so there was a Monday after I had been at that hospital, and I hadn’t slept and there I am with Nancy. So this is the story about listening into someone’s soul. So I’m with her. And as I’m seated with her, she’s not looking at me, all the colour in the room turns to black and white. And I’m looking, I’m saying this is really strange. And then I feel cold, and I thought I was having a stroke or a seizure. So I do a neurologic exam on myself, I’m a psychiatrist. So I was also trained a little bit in neurology. So I’m tapping my elbows, I’m tapping, and I’m looking at my fingers seeing if I have double vision. And, and it wasn’t rude because she wasn’t looking at me. And I thought to myself, I’m all here. I’m not having a stroke or a seizure. And I had this crazy idea that I was looking out at the world feeling what she felt. And it was black and white and cold. So because I was sleep deprived and kind of curious, I just leaned into it and it got colder. And then at one point, because I was sleep deprived, I blurted out something that normally I wouldn’t say, and you’ll understand why I wouldn’t say it. I said, Nancy, I didn’t know it was so bad. And I can’t help you kill yourself. Because she had made three attempts. And I said, but if you do, I will still think well of you. I will miss you. And maybe I’ll understand why you had to get out of all that pain. And I thought to myself, did I say that? Or did I think it? And I thought, I think I said it, I’m in trouble. I just gave her permission to do it. And at that point, she nervously started to look at me. And then she looked over and then she grabbed my eyes like Mr. Smith was trying to do. And I said, What are you thinking? And I thought she was going to say, Thank you for understanding. I’m overdue. But you didn’t say that. What she said was, If you can really understand why I might have to kill myself to get out of my pain. Maybe I won’t, maybe I won’t have to. And she smiled. And she held on to my eyes and the colour in the room came back. The coldness went away. And then I leaned in this time and I held on to her eyes. And I said, I’ll tell you what we’re going to do. I’m not going to give you any treatments that you’ve tried before. Unless we have a conversation you say maybe we should try some medicines or something else. Because none of them have really worked. Would that be okay? And she looked at me with a slight smile as if to say, That’s okay, keep talking. And then I leaned into her eyes. And I said, what I’m going to do instead is I’m going to find you wherever you are, because you’ve been there alone too long. And I’m going to keep you company as long as it takes. Because I just don’t want you to be that alone. Would that be okay? And she started to cry. And I connected with her in the dark night of the soul. What people don’t understand, unless you’ve been suicidal is death, and suicide, are compassionate to hopelessness that won’t go away. When you feel hopeless, or worthless, if you’re an entrepreneur, and you’ve failed so many times, and you’ve sacrificed so much, and you feel incredibly worthless and humiliated, death is compassionate. Death says, I’ll take it all away. And I will tell you, anyone who has been suicidal on more than one occasion, something they won’t tell you is they pack it into their back pocket. And they think, if worst comes to worst, I can always end it all. They don’t tell you that because they don’t want to scare you. But if they can feel felt, as Nancy did, they may let go of death being the only way out of their pain. So I know those are long stories, but hopefully it gives you an idea of something that led me to what I’m doing. So that when I coach executives. And here’s a taste of Surgical Empathy. I learned it from a friend of mine. He was the COO of the Marines during the 1990s. And he became the first CEO of the US Intrepid aircraft carrier on the Hudson. His name was Lieutenant General Marty Steele. And I was involved with him on a transition programme with returning Marines. And, and I asked them, What do you talk to these Marines about? And he said, I use the Five Reallys. So this is an example of Surgical Empathy. He would say Marine, how’s it going? Well, you know, it’s a little bit different between being actively on you know, warfront, and civilian life. And he would say, Yeah, I know, it’s different, what’s really going on? Well, you know, my spouse, and I, you know, we don’t talk much because she just doesn’t get it. Now, I understand that that’s rough too, what’s really going on. Well, sometimes I just, I just don’t, my head doesn’t know what’s going on. I just feel sort of lost, that I know what’s really going on. And he said, sometimes they would just look at you like a deer in the headlights. And they’d said, I saw and did horrible things. And he would give them a direct order. He’d say, if you’re a Marine, and you’re an active duty, we’ve all seen and done horrible things, collateral damage. And I’m giving you an order to let those go. Because you have earned the right to have a life. And he got letters from spouses telling them, You saved my husband’s life. So using the Five Reallys, you can get people to open up, and you don’t want to do it in a way that’s annoying them. You say No, I understand. That’s rough, but what’s really going on? And you can do that with anyone. I mean, I could say, Gary, you know, I understand that I’m on this podcast, and you have a certain following, what’s really going on? You might say, well, you know, I’m trying to give value to them, you know, the more value that I can give them, the more satisfied they are, the more satisfied I am and the more they’ll tell other people but what’s really going on? Well, you know, it’s a new avenue. It’s a new means of reaching people. It’s, I’m a little bit behind the ball because other people started a long time ago and I’m, you know, kind of just getting started and, and I hope it’ll work out. Well, what’s really going on? Sometimes it can be a real energy drain. Just managing it. Just getting the podcast ready to be published. That’s a lot of energy. And I hope that pays off. So do you follow how I’m going, Gary?

Gary Crotaz 20:07
I think it’s, it’s so interesting. And I’m reflecting on listening, because I’m hearing in all of these stories, to listenings. First is, the way you’re listening to the other person in a really deep way, with all of your senses, it’s not listening with your ears, just listening, you know, looking at body language, it’s something very holistic. But I also hear you listening to yourself, when, when you’re engaging with the other person. And I think I’m, I’m seeing in you, in those stories, what you’re learning about yourself, about who you are, as those come through, as well. And I think that’s something that is, that is really interesting to, to dive a little bit more into, to understand, as you’re going through that journey, as you were having those experiences with those stories with those patients. What was it doing for you, in helping you understand the kind of doctor you wanted to be, the kind of person you wanted to be, that those experiences shaped you as much as they, as they did?

Dr Mark Goulston 21:11
Well, I think it taught me a difference between pain and suffering. Pain is pain. And we can often live with chronic pain. But we can’t live with chronic suffering. And one of the differences, one of the distinctions I make between pain and suffering, is pain is pain. Suffering is feeling alone in the pain and having your mind go places that are really scary. I can’t take it anymore. I just, I just, I want someone to kill me. And if you can somehow help a person feel less alone in their suffering, suffering they can’t live with becomes pain that they can. And, and here’s one of the reasons for it – I’ll give you a little bit of the neuroscience. When we’re under stress, our body releases cortisol. Cortisol is released by the adrenal glands. And cortisol is known as the stress hormone. high stress, high cortisol. And when you have high cortisol, it does something where it tends to activate or over-activate something in our brain called the amygdala. And the amygdala is like an emotional sentinel, like a point guard. And when it becomes overactive by high cortisol, it sends a signal to shunt blood to your lower survival brain. So literally, the expression deer in the headlights is all the blood has drained from anything higher up in that deer’s head, and they’re just staring at you kind of frozen. And the next step is fight, flight or freeze, because you’re not able to think because the amygdala has hijacked the blood from your thinking part of your brain to a lower part of your brain. And so when you have high cortisol, from stress leads to high amygdala activation leads to hijack blood flow to survival brain. What people don’t know is one of the ways to reverse high cortisol is through a chemical called oxytocin. And that’s the bonding chemical. It’s also referred to as the empathy chemical. And it’s very high in young nursing mothers. Because when they give birth to an infant, and that infant isn’t nursing, the infant isn’t sleeping, and that mother is working a job and that mother is exhausted. And she’s going out of her mind. The oxytocin allows her to have incredible patience with that infant and to bond with that infant. Even though that infant is stressing her out. Now, she might divert it. And here’s a problem I’m seeing with younger marriages. Because often millennials and younger generations, because of, because of technology, are very impatient. You know, we get impatient when we get on a phone call and someone says would you mind taking a survey after the call? The majority of people say I don’t want to take a survey because they’re impatient. And one of the things that I’m seeing a lot of with younger generations’ marriages who have children is when a young mother is really stressed out, and exhausted by a baby who won’t sleep, a baby who won’t feed, again, their oxytocin allows them to bond with that baby. But they will redirect their frustration at their husband, and start taking out on their husband. Because they don’t want to start thinking I’m a bad mother, maybe I shouldn’t have had kids. And so their husband will just sort of come in, almost like Bambi who was prancing in the forest, comes in. And that exhausted, frustrated mother will be like the hunters shooting Bambi’s mother. And I’m seeing a lot of that going on, and it worries me. But, but high oxytocin causes the other person to feel felt. And that lowers cortisol, lessens the amygdala activation, and the blood flow can go back to your upper brain, and you can begin to think again.

Gary Crotaz 26:05
And what was the moment for you in your career where you’ve, you realised this whole listening thing was the thing that you wanted to, to really pursue? Was, was it always there for you? Or do you think that, did you get to a point where that became clear for you that, that it was about listening, and helping people to listen better?

Dr Mark Goulston 26:30
Well, there’s a backstory. And I didn’t know whether I would say it, but looks like I’m gonna say it because you pulled it out of me, Gary, so I’ll say it. So I, I dropped out of medical school twice, because I had untreated depression. And the first time I dropped out, I worked at a blue collar job. And I love that job. I still think about it and how simple it was and how stress-free it was. And my mind just wasn’t working at a real high level. But I came back after a year. And the depression came back. Now medical schools, as long as you’re not failing, will give you one year off, but they lose matching funds to your tuition doesn’t just pay for your place, they’re losing money. And so I came back, the depression happened again. But I was still passing. And, and so I thought to drop out again. And I met with the dean of the school and the head of the school was a good guy, but he asked to keep the school financially sound. So I don’t even remember meeting with him. But I think he must have been worried that I could do something destructive. So I got a call from the Dean of Students who cares about students. And the Dean of Students said, Mark, you better come over here. We have got a letter here from the Dean of the school. And I want you to come there so we can read it together. So I get there and I meet with the Dean of Students. And I’m feeling pretty low because I come from a background whereas if you can’t do anything, you’re not worth anything. You’re worthless. And I think my mind was flirting with that thought. And I go in there, and he reads the letter. He says here, here’s the letter. I read it. It says I met with Mr. Goulston. We talked about a different career. And I’m advising the promotions committee that he be asked to withdraw. I said, What does this mean? He said you’ve been kicked out. And it was like a blow, it was like a gunshot wound. I literally kind of folded over. And I felt something wet on my cheekbones and I thought I was bleeding from my eyes. I’m not spiritual. I’m not religious, but I felt something wet. And I started touching my cheekbones with my fingers and I kept looking at my fingers. And it wasn’t blood, it was tears. And I basically cratered in front of him. And that’s when I think a miracle happened. Because if he had said to me, if I can help you, you know, give me a call, you know, because of my pride, foolish pride, I would have gone back to my, where I lived, and I might not be here today. But he didn’t do that. Instead, he said Mark, You didn’t mess up because you passed everything. But you are messed up. But if you get un-messed up I think the school would one day be glad they gave you a second chance. And even if you don’t get un-messed up, even if you don’t become a doctor, even if you don’t do anything with the rest of your life, I’d be proud to know you. So I just started crying. Because he was just … the compassion was overwhelming. And then he looked at me, and he said, Look at me. He said, You have a streak of goodness and kindness in you that we don’t really grade in medical school. We probably should. And we assume it’s there. But you know, we don’t really grade it, but you got it. And he said, You don’t know how much the world needs that. And you won’t know it till you’re 35. But you have to make it till you’re 35. And you deserve to be on this planet. And then he, and then I looked away from him, because he’s, I couldn’t stand the compassion. And he said, Look at me. And he pointed his finger at me. And he said, You deserve to be on this planet. And you’re gonna let me help you. So he arranged an appeal. And he put us, and here’s the trifecta of hope that he gave me. He saw value in me that I didn’t. That was the goodness and kindness. He saw a future for me that I couldn’t see. The world’s gonna need that when you’re 35. And he went to bat for me, against the institution. At his own risk. He was just a PhD. He had to tell the school and the Dean of the school we’re appealing the Dean’s recommendation that he be asked to withdraw. And I think there was something about the combination of those three things. Feeling someone seeing value, a future and going to bat for you, I think, I think it flipped a switch in me. And so they gave me a year off. And I grew up in Boston. And I went to college in Berkeley, California. And I was going back to medical school in Boston. So during that year, I just needed to get away from all the voices telling me what I should be doing. So I went to Topeka, Kansas, which is in the middle of America. And there was a place called the Menninger Foundation. And it was one of the best-known psychiatric training centres in the country. And I went there to work at Topeka State Hospital. And I spent my days, you know, meeting with, trying to connect with schizophrenic farm boys. And the psychiatrists there, you know, this was different than anything I’ve ever experienced. And I remember saying to a psychiatrist, is this a legitimate specialty? Because it’s not like anything else I’ve known. And they said, no, no, no, it’s legitimate. And you seem to have a knack. And I didn’t, up to that time, I didn’t think I had a knack at anything. I’ll share one interesting anecdote, which I’ve never shared before. So you gotta, you gotta thing, but I hope you’re not falling asleep during these stories!

Gary Crotaz 33:43
I’m gripped!

Dr Mark Goulston 33:46
So there was. So when we were there, you know, they would assign one or two patients to you that you’d really drill down and get to know everything about them. In fact, my report on this particular person was I think, like 30 pages, you know, much longer than you put, you know, but it was part of your training, find out everything. And he was catatonic, meaning, in those days, even if he was medicated, he could just stand in the day room and just stand there all day long. And he was very compliant, meaning it was the middle of winter, if we’d go for a walk, I’d say let’s go for a walk for us, our meeting. And then there was one meeting I had with him. And something characteristic of at least the American state psychiatric hospitals. Probably true around the world. They have the hardest floors you can imagine. I mean, it is like they have ceramic tiles. It is like concrete. And this is out of context, but I was meeting with him and I don’t know, something inside me wanted to establish a connection. So I said, Oh, we’re gonna try an exercise. And why don’t you stand up, and I’ll get behind you. And I want you to close your eyes and fall back, and I’ll catch you. And because he was compliant, you know, he wasn’t rebellious, he was just flat arms by his side, he did it. And I said, Okay, let’s do it again, and I’ll let you drop even more. And I caught him. And I did this three times, I just caught him each time. Then I had this crazy idea. You know, I’m gonna suggest, I’m gonna have him do it with me. It was a crazy idea. And that’s why I brought up the hardness of the floor. I said, we’re gonna, now we’re gonna try it, where I’m going to be in front of you. I’m going to close my eyes, and I’m going to fall backwards, and you’re going to catch me. I don’t know why I came up with this crazy idea. And then I get in front of him. And there he is, you know, just sort of staring with his arms by his side, and I thought, I’m gonna die. He’s not gonna catch me. I’m going to fall. And I’m going to crack my skull open on that floor. And I remember standing there. And I was wondering, do I dare do this? Do I dare do this? And then I remember closing my eyes. And I said to myself, you got to do it. You can’t chicken out now. I can just feel it now, I can close my eyes, I get the chills. And then I fall backwards. And he lifts his hands. And he wouldn’t let me fall more than six inches. And what was weird is when I felt his hands on my shoulders, I looked around, I opened my eyes, I looked into his eyes. And I saw a spark of life. And I can’t say that, you know, I mean, again, I was just student I can’t say how much progress I made with him. But so, you know, you asked for a backstory. So maybe that sort of explains a little bit about why I, you know, my journey was, and I think why I was successful in the suicidal patients is I did what the Dean of Students did, I saw, I, I saw something of value in them, I saw a future for them. And, and I would basically communicate verbally, it’s like, You’re not going anywhere, I’m gonna grab you by the nape of the neck, and I’m gonna hold you there. And you’re gonna walk out of this.

Gary Crotaz 38:21
And I think that what’s so powerful about the stories you tell is that the first stories are, are amazing. But then the stories you talked about, about your own journey, makes it really clear why that is you, why that is your path, why that’s your journey and, and this idea that there’s this connecting theme of catching someone when they’re falling, I hear that through every story you tell. So it’s incredibly powerful. And I thank you very much for, for sharing such rich and meaningful stories with, with myself and with my listeners. And so tell me about, you know, where you are now and what’s coming up for you now, what are the things that are, that are your priorities over the over the coming months and you know, the rest of this year 2022?

Dr Mark Goulston 39:13
Well, I formed a company with a partner of mine, and you can go to the website, there’s there’s a little bit there. And it’s called Michelangelo Mindset. Because there’s, there’s a famous phrase from Michelangelo. I saw the angel in the marble and I carved until I set her free. And it’s really explained my entire life. So from the Dean of Students seeing a future for me, and hope in me, and protecting me from the medical school throwing me out, and it set me free. My seeing hope, a future in suicidal patients until they could feel it. I, I have a column if you’re listening in, if you go to Real Leaders, Michelangelo Leadership, it really outlines my executive coaching. And I, and it’s the only form of executive coaching that I do. And you can actually take the article and get your own stakeholders. And you don’t have to hire me, you know, and I don’t come inexpensively. Because what is Michelangelo Leadership? Inside your people is a desire to trust you, have confidence in you, feel safe with you, respect you, admire you, like you and feel inspired by you. And if you think that’s all kind of soft, what do you think they’re going to do, if they don’t trust you, they don’t have confidence in you, they don’t feel safe with you, they don’t respect you, they don’t admire you, they don’t like you, and they don’t feel inspired by you. And so the idea is, if that’s inside people, what can you do to set it free? And so the observable behaviours that I do with my coaching clients is every meeting you have, one on one, group, and even in your home, I want this across the board. If you can manifest the following observable behaviours, it will result in people feeling all those things towards you. And that’s in the article. First off, are you unflappable under pressure? Are you just calm under pressure? Second, are you present, it’s one thing to be calm, it’s another thing to be like a robot. So people have to feel that you’re calm, but they connect with you. With regard to safety, do they see you as taking charge of situations where there’s a crisis? And during a crisis, you take charge. But when the crisis goes away, you’re not so controlling? Sometimes in a crisis, you have to be controlling, because, you know, they’re all looking at you. So do they see you as someone who takes charge? Or someone who’s afraid to take charge? Also, in terms of respect, and admiration, do you come off as knowledgeable? Meaning does it sound like what you’re talking about, you’ve actually done? You know, do you have confidence? Do you have a track record of actually having accomplished things that are relevant to whatever the crisis is? Or the mission you’re on? Are you not … are you wise? And what wisdom is, is do you focus on what’s important? Or do you get sidelined by something that’s trivial? In terms of their … also, do they admire you? Do you stand up for the right thing? Do you stand up against people who violate the right thing? Even at the cost of the company? Do you stand up to toxic people who make you a lot of money? Also, are you likeable? Do you have a sense of humour about yourself? And are you a little bit self-effacing? But you take the world seriously. And do you lift people up? That’s inspiring. To give them a sense of hope. And then also, are you gracious and humble? Gracious means you’re, you’re, you’re a good sport. Whether you win or lose. When you win you don’t gloat and rub people’s face in it. And you give credit to other people. You’re gracious. And you’re humble. You say, you know, you know, it’s, it’s my honour to be part of this amazing team. And they made it happen. You know, I just help them pull out the greatness they already had. So Michelangelo Leader… that’s Michelangelo Leadership. And I, anybody who wants to hire me, I say, look, where I am in life. The world needs more leaders who show up like that. And if, and I won’t coach you unless that’s what you want to do. So I don’t do remedial coaching. Now, sometimes a big company will say, Oh, this person has so much potential, but they’re really toxic and whatever. And so I’ll meet with the person, and I’ll listen for something inside, some goodness. And if I see goodness, but they just don’t know any better other than to act obnoxious, and I’ll tell them, I’ve even said to some top CEOs. I’m trying to figure out when you act difficult, is it because you don’t know any better? Or is it because you take delight in doing it? If you take delight in hurting other people, I won’t work with you because I can’t root for you. I cannot root for a person who takes delight in hurting other people. If you don’t know any better, if you have good intentions, but you’re a little bit on the spectrum, you know, you … I just want them to do their work. And when they don’t do their work, I get frustrated! Well, you know, it’s understandable you get frustrated, but you know, you show your frustration in a way that’s a bit … bullying. And if you don’t know any better, I will teach you better. And, but I have to root for you. So does that make sense? And, and I think it’s a great way to approach… and we have Michelangelo Marketing. Here’s Michelangelo Marketing. I’ll just give you a quick taste. Michelangelo Marketing. I often refer to this moment in the history of technology that changed everything. And that’s when Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak discovered the graphical user interface, the mouse, the icons at Xerox PARC. And there’s actually a video if you look up National Geographic, Steve Jobs, Xerox PARC, you’ll see a dramatisation. And when he lays eyes on the mouse and the graphical user interface, he goes from that know it all cynic, to saying to the Xerox technician, can I try it? And then he tries it and he starts to sweat. And then he looks at Steve Wozniak, like, what do you think? And Steve Wozniak actually shows up, giving a commentary saying Once they go there, they’re not going back, meaning they’re not going to go back to typing. And then at the end of it, a writer Walter Isaacson says Xerox didn’t know what to do with it. But Steve Jobs went back to Apple and they created the Macintosh. So the three components that are part of Michelangelo Marketing, you want to create Wow! Hmm? Yes. And it’s WHY, W-H-Y. Wow, I can’t believe what I am seeing. And that was Steve Jobs seeing the mouse. Hmm. This is too good to ignore. Let me look at my partner who thinks better about these things and he looks at Wozniak and Wozniak says, Yep, you go there, they’re not going back. And then what’s the Yes, I see how we can do it. Let’s build a Macintosh. So when we do Michaelangelo Marketing, even with you, even with your podcast, what you’re trying to create in your listeners is the experience of Wow. Hmm. Yes. And you’re looking for guests that deliver that. Because if you can create Wow. He had this guest on that just blew my mind! Hmm, if he has guests like that, I’m gonna, I’m gonna tune him. I’m subscribing. Yes! So does that kind of answer some of your questions?

Gary Crotaz 49:16
I’m imagining you walking through the world with your little mallet and chisel seeing where you want to carve out those little Michelangelo sculptures! So it’s fantastic and, and Mark, you’ve been incredible, telling your stories and bringing so much life and truth and deep thinking to, to this podcast and this conversation. I really appreciate it. So thank you so much for for joining me today. And I hope all my listeners have really enjoyed listening to you and sharing your wisdom over this past hour or so. I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much.

Dr Mark Goulston 49:52
Well, thank you for having me. And if people want to find me, you can find me at LinkedIn and my last name is Goulston. And you can go to my personal website, MarkGoulston.com. That’s pretty up to date. I have a podcast that you were wonderful on, called My Wakeup Call, where I get to hear people like you be a great guest like I hope I tried to be. And people share with me their purpose, their calling, and the Wakeup Calls that led them to who they are and what they’re doing. So I hope you’ll check that out. And, and actually, there’s actually an audio course. So if I didn’t put you to sleep and you liked hearing how slow and drawn out my voice is, if you go to himalaya.com/defeat there is an audio course based on my first book, which is also a best seller, called Get Out Of Your Own Way. And the course there is Defeating Self-Defeat. And you can subscribe for 14 days and listen to the 13 episodes and really be put to sleep by me!

Gary Crotaz 51:05
Well, I think that as a guest, you have delivered the Wow. We’re all sitting going Hmm and Yes, we probably want to listen again to this conversation and to hear all those stories that you’ve told. Mark, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast and I’m sure we’ll touch base again very soon.

Dr Mark Goulston 51:23
I would like that, I’d like us to stay in touch.

Gary Crotaz 51:28
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook formats. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly, where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you will be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today. I’m delighted to have Texas-based team development and leadership coach, Micah Lorenc on the show, someone I’ve enjoyed listening to and learning from this last year when we’ve been connecting on the topic of strengths. He was an obvious choice to be one of the first people to feature on The Unlock Moment. After more than six years of coaching during his free time, Micah left his full time job in strategy at a Fortune 100 company to pursue a coaching business. Most of his clients are working professionals seeking career, leadership and small business entrepreneurship coaching. However, he works regularly with teams in the workplace who are interested in creating a strengths-based culture in their organisation using Gallup CliftonStrengths. Micah is someone I’ve been listening to for a long time on various podcasts and online forums. And I love how he’s continually searching on the journey to understanding and hope. I know you’ll enjoy hearing more about his story and what he’s learned along the way. Micah, welcome to The Unlock Moment.

Micah Lorenc 1:59
Thank you, Gary, I’m so excited to talk to you today. This is going to be fun.

Gary Crotaz 2:03
Fantastic. So start out with telling us a little bit about your story. So what journey did you go on to get to where you are today?

Micah Lorenc 2:11
Yeah, I’d love to share that. So I grew up in the United States, mostly in the state of Colorado. I identified as a performer, I think this would have been considered irrelevant to my story had I not thought a lot about this. But all my life I kind of identified as a performer through high school and university. And I was interested in entrepreneurship early on in my education. And there was a moment in, in my university career, I guess you could say, or I decided I was I was even this is almost like an early Unlock Moment for me, where I realised I had two paths, I could go on an entrepreneurship path and start my own business in my early 20s. And that was kind of like following my passion. And then the other path was I was already married, and I had a baby on the way. And I knew that was important to me to to be able to provide stability for my family. And I decided to go the stable route, I thought it would be better for my family over the long term. And I was confident I could learn to enjoy anything that I did. So I took a corporate career path for a little over a decade at a Fortune 100 company. I loved my time there, it was great, I made I made good use of it. And where I am today actually started to fork from my experience in my corporate job when, in my role as a facilitator in strategy, people started asking me to facilitate team builders as a part of the facilitated workshops that I would do. And I had been exposed to the CliftonStrengths Assessment and the CliftonStrengths material from Gallup and decided that would be as good as anything to include in these workshops. And over the next five, six years, I started gaining an expertise in the CliftonStrengths, material and experience in coaching with that material as kind of a basis. And I started to, I started to get home from work. And my wife noticed that I would talk about the CliftonStrengths work that I was doing, were really the coaching and the facilitated workshops that I would do. I was more excited about that than my day job. And she she suggested that maybe that’s what I should be doing instead, or really just asking, why don’t you, why don’t you do that full time? And it occurred to me at that moment that I really should consider pursuing entrepreneurship again, after all these years, and it still took me two, two and a half years to pull the trigger and actually make that change. But eventually I took the leap, started my own coaching practice just, just over a year ago. And now I I’m a leadership and CliftonStrengths coach. I’m an ICF-certified coach, and I do coaching with startup founders. and small business owners, as well as facilitated workshops with their teams to help them with team development, work better together as a team and create high performing teams. And it’s just, it’s so different from what I did in a corporate setting. But I love it. Every, every day, I love what I do.

Gary Crotaz 5:18
That’s amazing. So we’re going to go into great detail about that day when you finally listened to your wife! So I want to come to that! So take us back to the beginning, when you say performer, unpack that for us, what what is what’s performer for you.

Micah Lorenc 5:35
So, especially if you’re familiar with the CliftonStrengths, material, I think, I think in strengths now, because of my exposure to it, I have strengths like communication, and woo, and activator. They’re things that are kind of influencing strengths. And I’ve never really realised the significance of that, I just assumed that performing in high school and at university were hobbies. And so I did, I grew up singing, I did musicals, and I loved being on stage. And that, I never realised how important that was to me until I stopped doing it. And I graduated and I went to my corporate job. And I started to get a peek back into that world when I was asked to be a facilitator, I was offered a job as a strategic planning facilitator. And as soon as I started facilitating workshops again, and I was in front of a room, and organising people, especially people who were paid way more than me at levels of leadership way above me, but they listened to me. And I was able to engage them and get their attention and get them involved and have them enjoy themselves. It was like I was on stage again, it was it was the performing that I experienced in my youth in a job setting where I could get paid to do something that I was really good at, and that energised me, that I loved. So that’s where I think the performing connection comes in is, even in a corporate setting, I can find I could find somewhere that felt comfortable and fun. Because performing was something that I used to think was comfortable and fun.

Gary Crotaz 7:11
And when you close your eyes and you think of yourself back on stage, which stage is it? And what role are you in or what what what production are you in when you when you think back?

Micah Lorenc 7:22
I was in… So at university I had, I was in an acapella group, so no, no instruments, there were nine of us, it was all male, an all male acapella group. And we would travel the country, doing shows and people would come from around the country to see our shows. And we recorded albums, it was such a fun experience for a college student to go through that. That’s I think, where I see myself probably because it was the highlight of my performing career, if you will, in my youth to have been a full time student working part time, but I would spend my my evenings and weekends performing on those stages. So I think that’s, that’s still where I envision myself.

Gary Crotaz 8:11
Yeah, that’s really interesting. But you’re in a group, you’re in a group of people all working together to do to do one thing. Because there are some coaches, you know I think that there are some coaches that love one to one coaching, and there’s some coaches that love group facilitation, team facilitation. So it’s interesting that the example that you pick is that yeah, no, it was gonna say is that is is you and a group on on stage working as a unified team.

Micah Lorenc 8:36
Well, and it’s interesting that you say that about coaches too, because since starting my own practice a year ago, I had to learn that too. And most of the, it was an interesting observation or learning that I had, when I realised I needed at the beginning to just take on any clients, I needed business, I needed income to provide for my family. And so I would take on a lot of one on one clients because they were easier to acquire. And as I started working with more and more teams and companies, I did feel that draw to the teams and the companies I … as a coach, and I’ve met some just like you that they prefer the one on one because it’s intimate, and it’s personal. And I like that too. But there’s nothing like working with a team of people and helping facilitate some of the takeaways, those aha moments between coworkers, when they learn something about one another that helps them realise, oh, we we can work better together and being there and being able to witness that and facilitate that. There’s nothing like it for me.

Gary Crotaz 9:42
I love that. And I hope that listeners listening to this can can pick up on the energy that you pick up when you’re imagining that moment of two people learning from one another. I think that’s amazing. So when you first left in the university and you took your first job did it feel safe then, or did you reflect over time that it was a safe thing to do?

Micah Lorenc 10:05
It felt safe then. And, yeah, I mean, I think that was, at the time lacking life experience. That was probably more a perception than reality. As I’ve learned over time, and as I’ve gotten older, and having worked with a lot of entrepreneurs and startup founders, myself, I look back at that time and actually think there wasn’t a safer time to be an entrepreneur, in my experience, than when I had nothing. I made no money. I had, I had a baby on the way, but we didn’t need a lot of money to provide for ourselves at that time. We didn’t own a house, we weren’t, we weren’t tied to, you know, large assets or debt or anything like that. I didn’t have a lot of school debt. So looking back with my own experience now, that was actually probably the safer time of my entire life, to actually have gone into starting my own business and entrepreneurship versus today, I have three kids, and they need, they need braces, and they need healthcare, and they need all these things. And yeah, so if that was the intent of your question, that was probably the best time to have started my own business!

Gary Crotaz 11:22
And what was influencing you at that time? Because I mean, that’s a very common thing for people to come out of, you know, university or school and think about what’s, what’s the sensible thing to do? What was influencing you to say, you know, safe is good?

Micah Lorenc 11:38
Now, that’s a really good question. I know, I know, an influence was the fact that I’m, I’m one of nine kids. And my dad, yeah, so that I come from a big family. And my dad had usually had a job, but he didn’t always have a great job. And so we grew up with very little, we were making ends meet most of my life growing up. And so, and I’ve heard this from other people who’ve experienced a level of poverty in their youth, that, that we go into avoidance mode sometimes, and / or risk avoidance mode, where we choose a safe path, because there’s a little bit of trauma associated with not having money early on. And so picking something where you know the money’s going to be there, even if it’s not your favourite thing, or something that brings you joy. If it’s, if it’s going to have a steady income and healthcare benefits, then maybe that’s the right choice so that you don’t experience that trauma that you remember from your childhood. So I do believe that there’s a lot of that that influenced it. But I think I was also just in, in the university setting. Most… There’s only one entrepreneurship programme, and it was tiny. Everywhere else was about traditional career paths. Every, every other department at university is telling you this is, this is a traditional career path. This is a safe career path. So even just in the environment I put myself in, it was confirming what I think I already understood, which was entrepreneurship is risky.

Gary Crotaz 13:19
It really resonates for me, because I mean, as you know, and many of my listeners will know, I studied medicine, and did a PhD in the science lab. And I was my late 20s. I was 27/28 when I suddenly realised that I didn’t have to do that career path if I didn’t want to. And at that time, it felt like such a revelation. But I’d been doing that for eight years before really I woke up to Crikey. You know, you don’t have to, if you don’t want to.

Micah Lorenc 13:47
So, so yeah, no, I want to hear what you were about to say.

Gary Crotaz 13:52
Well, I was going to say that that sense of you are driven by, at that age, sort of perception of the right thing to do and perception of correct and perception of safety, because you don’t know what you don’t know. And I think I learned later in life to trust my own judgement, whether right or wrong. And that’s what I talk to people about. Now, I’d say, you know, you might be wrong, but at some point, you’ve got to back yourself. But when I was when I was young, I didn’t feel that I could back myself because I thought that being wrong just meant that I would be, you know, I was being naive, or I was being foolish. And you know, so back to that thing you said about avoidance. I really resonate with that, I think.

Micah Lorenc 14:32
Well, and I like what you just said about kind of like trusting yourself that that’s the hard thing I think for people to accept sometimes is we do have these external influences that tell us what’s right and wrong, or what’s safe and what’s not safe. And to, to sometimes take that with a grain of salt and say well, but I’m the boss of my life. And and to own those decisions can be really hard. I had an exchange with a client, actually a former client, over, over LinkedIn the other day And he, he’s been telling me for years, how much he wants to leave his corporate job that he’s been in for 16 years, and start his own business. He knows exactly what area he wants to. But he talks about the corporate life being golden handcuffs. It’s like, he feels handcuffed. But it’s also really nice to have the lifestyle and income that he has. And, and what I ended up telling him was like, Look, you’re gonna look back, we’ve been having this conversation for two years, you’re gonna look back in 10 years, and realise that you were sitting on the fence between a corporate job and entrepreneurship for that entire time, never really enjoying either path. Because you, you were choosing to stay. And it was your choice. But it’s almost like you were being drawn to this other path, and you never got the most out of either. And I was like, you’re making a choice. But you’re almost like putting that choice on external influences. Own your choice, it’s your decision. If you’re, if you like your lifestyle, so much that you want to stay at a corporate job, that’s okay. Own that and enjoy it and accept that that’s the way that it is. Or if you really want to start entrepreneurship, that’s your choice too. Go, go do what you love, and accept that it’s not going to be the same. I think that’s, that’s a hard lesson for people to learn, even in their … he’s in his 40s.

Gary Crotaz 16:22
I knew you were the right person to have on this podcast. And I hope that the listeners are appreciating this, like, amazing free advice that’s coming from you. I think that I think about people when they hit their 30th birthday, it’s a real moment now where people start to think, Okay, this is the decade when I’ve got to make some stuff happen, because you look ahead to your 40th birthday, and you think, if I haven’t started now, am I ever going to start? So I talk to quite a lot of people who really remember where they were, and what they were thinking on their 30th birthday, because it’s that sort of Okay I can’t drift anymore. But then it happens again on your 40th birthday. And again on your 50th I think. It never, it never leaves you. So, so, so you’re in this deliberately safe environment, you know, you knew that that’s what you were doing. But it was, it was, it was a good and positive and confident environment. And you’ve enjoyed that work. So when was the first time that you started to imagine something different?

Micah Lorenc 17:24
Well, it’s funny, I was just, I was just giving this guy a hard time that I was talking to you about, someone I formerly coached. But I was him! I was him eight years ago, for real! It was probably in 2015 that I started listening to entrepreneurship and online marketing podcasts. And I just found it so fascinating. And I would listen to … to a different episode from a different entrepreneurship podcast pretty much every weekday while I was working out. And it was from that time in 2015. And I was like, that’s what I want. I knew then that that’s what I wanted. And it took me another six years to, to finally quit my corporate job and pursue what I wanted. So I, it’s easy to give to give that advice to someone and say, Hey, make a choice. But part of that comes from experience, because I do know how hard that is. But it was, yeah, six, seven years ago, that I started to look at entrepreneurship and starting my own business as the thing that I want in my life. And I did take steps in that direction over time. It wasn’t just in 2020 I was like, Okay, I’m done. And I’m you know, this is this is the time. I was taking small incremental steps, I think, in the right direction, since 2015.

Gary Crotaz 18:46
And unpack that, That’s what I wanted. What was it of everything you were hearing, that was the common thread running through it. You you were like, That’s it. That’s the spark?

Micah Lorenc 18:56
I think. I think what it comes down to and I wouldn’t have known this at the time, but I can say in retrospect, I think what I realised I wanted was creativity. I need to create something from nothing. And up until that point in my career and truly over the, over the following five years. I was always doing what somebody else asked. And I was doing it their way. And having been in performing growing up and other, other creative endeavours like art and dance, I was involved in all of those things and those, I enjoyed those and during the the years from 2015 to 2021 when I actually started my business and went off on my own, I tried to supplement my work experience with those creative endeavours. I did start a couple of small businesses. I tried an online business, I tried, my wife and I created a leggings business using environmentally-friendly fabric, it was, it was all fun. I did it as a part of my MBA. I’ve written a children’s book, and I have another one that I just finished with the illustrator. But they were all just creative projects on the side of my job, because I knew I needed that in my life. And, and I think in 2015, it occurred to me that I can make my entire work life focused on creating, if I’m willing to put myself out there, and, and let go of what I previously thought of as safe.

Gary Crotaz 20:27
And I know that not everyone listening will necessarily be fluent in this language of CliftonStrengths, but it’s this model of understanding your natural talents and strengths and learning about yourself in your most sort of core way, like, it’s not about your skills, it’s not about your experiences, it’s about really who you are. Can, can you bring to life for the listener some of your top talents and strengths and how that plays through to this thing about you need creativity? How does that shine through?

Micah Lorenc 20:59
Well, I would say, one of the one of the primary strengths that influences my need for creativity is my number one strength is Communication. And most people don’t, if you’ve not, if you’re not familiar with the CliftonStrengths, a lot of people assume that it means you’re a good communicator. But like you said, Gary, it’s deeper than that. It’s that you need an opportunity to share your voice to be on stage, to have other people be an audience and listen to you. And it can be as simple as storytelling, having somebody to tell a story to a party or you know, one on one, or it could be presenting, performing, being on stage. It’s, it’s amazing how often I talk to people with high communication, and ask them, Do you play an instrument? Or did you ever perform growing up and it’s amazing how often there’s a correlation there, that needing to be on stage and finding joy in performing for others, comes from that Communication strength. So I think that’s a big one. I also have high Woo, and high Self Assurance, and the Woo is this desire to, to be friendly, to make friends quickly, and to get people to like you. And when you pair that with, with Communication, it’s very much it’s very much a performing combination. And so when I…

Gary Crotaz 22:17
What does Woo mean, for the uninitiated?

Micah Lorenc 22:17
Oh, yes, good. Yeah. Woo stands for Winning Others Over so very much that getting getting people to like you is almost like a fun challenge. And I always felt that, I’ll tell you, there was I remember this, this, maybe it wasn’t a moment, but it was a series of moments when I was performing in the acapella group at university, where everybody, the group would transition people in and out. Over the years, once you graduated, you couldn’t be in the group anymore, you had to be a student. So every year, some people would graduate, and we would have auditions and bring new people in. And so when I came in, the way that we did performances, where we would, we would plan out the whole show, and have song by song, what we felt like was a natural flow, some up songs, some down songs, so that it wasn’t all one energy the whole time. And I noticed that we always went straight from the end of one song to the beginning of another, we would pause for 20 seconds, and introduce the next song. And one thing I started doing that had never been done before is I was like we’ve got 1000s of people here in front of us. And we, we know nothing about them. We have no interactions with them. I’m gonna go, I’m gonna walk offstage. And I’m gonna go talk to some of these people. And so in the middle of a concert, when it was my turn to introduce the next song, sometimes I would just like wander off the stage, and crack jokes or interact with people and just learn, learn from people ask them questions like, Hey, what do you, who do you think in the group, this thing is true of? Like a little trivia. And at first, I just did it on the fly. And it was natural. And eventually, everybody started doing it too. And so our shows became this really entertaining thing that started with me just being in a moment of strength, where I let that Woo, and the Communication and, and the Self Assurance to try something that hadn’t been tried before, let that guide me to have those kinds of interactions with people … and bringing it back to the way that I work now, I use those same tactics when I facilitate a group in a team development workshop at a corporation or at a startup. It’s the same kind of joy that I got out of performing in college. I get to experience that every time I’m meeting with a team and it’s, it’s unlike … if you, if you don’t know what that’s like, or you can’t hear how fun that is for me, think of something that’s really enjoyable for you where you’re in the flow. You’re in the moment, you love every second of it. And imagine you get to do that for your job. That’s what it feels like.

Gary Crotaz 25:05
So this is what’s so fascinating for me. So this exactly what you’ve described has been there all the way through, and you can, you can weave this thread through. And yet, in your Unlock Moment, it took somebody else, your wife in this case, saying something to you, to make you wake up to it, bring it, bring us right into that moment, what was happening just before it happened, what were you thinking, what were you feeling? And then take us right through that moment and how it changed things for you?

Micah Lorenc 25:35
That is a great question. And I actually hear, I hear that same question being asked to people I’ve coached who, who have experienced what I’m about to tell you, and it’s that, I think that for whatever reason, and maybe we dig, we dig into why this is, but as a father, and as a provider, I felt like it was my responsibility to prioritise my family’s needs over my own. And that the job that I had being safe, and providing plenty of income and stability to support my growing family, that that was more important than my career joy. And I felt, I think I felt that sense of responsibility for the entire time that I was working, the 11 years that I was in a corporate role. And I think my wife asking that question, why don’t you do this full time, it created just the tiniest little opening in my brain, that allowed me to entertain the idea that maybe I can have both. And that her expectations for me, might have been different than my own expectations that I was projecting on her for me, if that makes sense. I was, I think, assuming my wife would want me to do this too, because it provides for our family. And for her to come out and say, You’re obviously happier when you do this kind of work. Why don’t you do more of that kind of work? It almost gave me permission to explore this idea that maybe I can provide for my family, and have career joy, even if, admittedly, I make much less money doing what I do now than I did ever you, you are in the medical field. So you, you would know that too. But I, I wouldn’t trade it for the world, because I am providing for my family. And I love what I do every day. I have both now.

Gary Crotaz 27:32
And I mean, I completely resonate with that, not, not that UK doctors are paid anything like US doctors, but certainly my corporate career. And I’ve talked to a lot of coaches who, who say the same thing. And it blows the mind to people that are not coaches that you would take a massive pay cut to go do your thing that you love to do every day. But that, it’s, it’s something that coaches kind of, you know, gather on the corner in the rain and love about each other, yeah. So, so why did that conversation come up at that moment? And not any other time? What was happening at that time that triggered the But why don’t you do this?

Micah Lorenc 28:14
Yeah, I’m trying to remember when that was, where we were, what was going on in our life. I imagine, I imagine it was probably just a stressful time, there was probably a lot going on, a lot expected of me. And I would guess that my wife could feel that most days that I would bring home work. And that it was heavy. And, and when I would talk about those days, when I got to do workshops, or coach people, it was probably just the juxtaposition, the contrast, between the day before and the day after, where everything was heavy, and I was coming home stressed, and maybe even a little down or, you know, weighed down or de-energised that, that contrast of seeing me really excited and enthusiastic about what I was doing when I was coaching and facilitating. It probably was just an observation on her part. Well, obviously you need to be doing what’s making you behave and feel the way that you feel right now. So that’s, I’ve never thought about that, I can’t I can’t really pinpoint exactly what was going on at that time. But, but that’s likely I think what happened is she saw that difference. And it was so apparent that she couldn’t help but mention it.

Gary Crotaz 29:37
And I love how you you tell that story about imagining feeling heavy. I think that’s a really great visualisation of, and something that a lot of people I think will resonate with right now. And I have a lot of conversations with people who look at, you know, the great reset, the great resignation, we’re going through at the moment, and see people thinking about leaving, or leaving to do something that feels like a high risk thing. And sometimes people who are watching that going on are thinking, you know, this is, this is a sort of temporary problem and you’re making a permanent change, or you don’t, you’re making a reckless decision. What you’re describing, I think is, and this won’t be everybody, but there’ll be a lot of people going through change at this time where the, the, the pressure, you know, the stress, bringing work home, may, you know, being fully burned out. It’s actually a trigger that brings you clarity, it’s not a trigger that makes you go do something reckles, it’s a trigger that gives you clarity, because you’ve gone into what you’re doing now with your eyes wide open, you knew perfectly well how much money you make in your new career compared with your old career.

Micah Lorenc 30:51
Absolutely.

Gary Crotaz 30:52
So, and in that point of transition, how how long did it take you to know that that was the right answer?

Micah Lorenc 31:05
How long did it take me to know?

Gary Crotaz 31:06
Was it like, was it instantaneous? Was it something that you sort of thought about for a time? You know, did you live with it for a few weeks? And then go Ok I’m comfortable, I’m certain? Or did you just know?

Micah Lorenc 31:18
I think, I think I knew, I think I knew that it was the right decision back in 2015, when I knew that this was where I wanted to be at some point. But the when was hard. That was the moment that I needed. It wasn’t if it was when for me. And I reached a point in late 2020. Where, and this, this was where it became clear. I had, I had great bosses, my entire career at this company. But in 2020, I got just the worst boss I’ve ever had. And, and it was so easy to finally think about, about this is the time where it would be easier for me to leave a job that I did enjoy with people I did enjoy. And up to that point bosses that I really enjoyed working for. But at that moment, I was like, Okay, this, this could be real. And I started having these conversations with my wife. What if I quit my job in six months? And what would that look like? And that’s where she started to be the to be a little bit scared, a little bit more scared, like, Okay, wait, how is this gonna work? And what’s our, what’s our contingency plan? But at that moment, I started talking to mentors within the company. And without about, this is what I’m thinking. Some of my mentors within the same company were like, Oh, you don’t have to go start your own business, you can come work for me, like, I’ll offer you a job in my department next week. And I actually said, No, I was like, No, I don’t, I don’t think I want to do that. I’ve wanted to do this for six years. And if I don’t do it now, I think I’ll regret it. I, and, and as I talked to my wife, and we, we thought through those contingencies, I told her, I’ve been at this company for 11 years. And I’ve had offers to go to other teams, even before I finally I even quit my job altogether. If this coaching and starting my own business doesn’t work out. I’m 90% sure I can go right back to my network in this company, and get a job. And I think that was what she needed to hear. And I think I did too, to know that I had a backup plan. But I could pursue this thing that was really important to me, recognise that the timing was as good as it’s ever going to be. And finally, take the leap and try, try it, so that, as I mentioned, I think I just needed, I needed to know. And if I looked back and never tried, I would regret not having tried. So I went for it.

Gary Crotaz 33:54
I love how you described 2015, because it’s a, it’s a perfect articulation of something that I sometimes talk about in coaching as a ‘post-it note moment’. And this is a personal story for my own career journey where, at some point, I was in a role where I knew that I was done with that role. And I walked past my colleague’s desk, and I picked up a post-it note and I just wrote on it. I’m leaving and put the post-it note back on the desk and carried on walking. And they went, you know, when are you going? Where are you going? I was like I don’t know. You know, all I know is that at some point, I will leave and it was a moment of clarity that didn’t require a destination or a timeline and there was a freedom in that. But what it did do is it completely clarified my, my priorities in that role. So I was like I’m coming to work to do the best job I can. I’m just not worried about the politics and I’m not worried about trying to climb the career ladder. I’m just here to do the best job I can. Now about six months later I did, did leave but I talked to some of my clients now about this idea of when’s your post-it note moment when you go, I know at some point, in the right circumstances, this is what I’m going to do. And that’s your 2015. That’s your clarity. And it just took you six years to find the right time.

Micah Lorenc 35:10
Absolutely. And that, and I never thought of it that way. I will from now on! But I love that you kept walking, like this was, you realised it, put it down there, almost like this isn’t for my colleague that was for me, I needed to write that, you just happened to be where I was. And then I can move on knowing like that, I needed to know.

Gary Crotaz 35:30
That’s exactly right! I’m still very good friends with that, with that colleague. And we’ve worked together over many years since then. And she still is a little bit shocked that I did it. But you know, we talk about that, that clarity, and I found that clarity between leaving the meeting room and walking past, probably three desks, like that was the moment I was just like I know, that that’s the right answer.

Micah Lorenc 35:54
I started having some of those in, like you said, you were leaving a meeting. There, I had more and more of those near the end, where I would sit, I would be in a meeting. And I was great at meetings. I was, I think my same Communication, Self Assurance, those things are at their best in a meeting setting. But sometimes I would sit there and I’d be listening to the conversation. And almost mentally, I would kind of sit back in my chair and look around and be like, we’re talking about insurance. This is so unfulfilling, like I do not care. I don’t care about what we’re doing here. And those moments, repeatedly were enough for me to have that that post-it note moment where I knew something had to change. It was really about paying attention for when.

Gary Crotaz 36:46
And you know, in that moment, and I imagine, like the fog of confusion or complexity around everybody’s heads. And I visualise you in your chair going, I’m not happy, like you’re not feeling you know, overwhelmed with purpose and desire and passion in that moment. But you are absolutely clear in where you are.

Micah Lorenc 37:09
I know what I want. I just need to figure out when. I gotta ask you, Gary, have you ever had, have you had people from your corporate job from your experience like that coworker, have they come to you after you left, and expressed, I wish I could do that?

Gary Crotaz 37:28
Many, many times, many times.

Micah Lorenc 37:32
Me too.

Gary Crotaz 37:32
And I’ve coached a number of people that I used to work with. I’ve coached a number of people who used to work for me. And it’s interesting, because it’s interesting coaching people that you also know quite well. And we talk a lot about, in my coaching, we talk a lot about the search for clarity, because in my mind I’m a very structured, logical kind of person very, you know, my number two is Strategic. And so, in CliftonStrengths terms, so, so my brain works in a very, How can we make this exceptionally simple, sort of way, and my Empathy is 32, which means I’m not too much in the softly, softly conversation.

Micah Lorenc 38:12
Let’s get let’s get to the heart of it!

Gary Crotaz 38:15
Right! And what’s what’s fascinating is seeing people get to that moment of clarity maybe on something that they’ve been struggling with for years or for a decade or longer. And then you ask them a question that is, in one sense, a very simple question. But in another sense, a question they’ve literally never asked themselves. I was working with a coachee a year or two ago, and we were talking about opportunities ahead. And they went through the various opportunities that were available to them, and they were great. And they then went through and thought about what was good and bad about each of them. And then I said, And what do you want to do? And they went, Well of the three, maybe this one? And I went No, but what do you want to do? And they went I never, I never asked myself that question. And I went, Well, why don’t you? And I was like, and that, for me is like, what’s so cool about coaching. That you get to be in that conversation.

Micah Lorenc 39:19
What’s what’s discouraging, hearing you say that you’ve had co-workers do that. And I’ve done the same, I’ve coached a handful of former co-workers. And it’s, it’s sad and discouraging to hear how many of those came out of the work, the woodwork when I left the corporate, corporate world to start my own business. How many people are secretly unhappy with their careers and not pursuing what brings them joy? And that, that is hard to swallow sometimes, that there are that many people that are just doing what’s, what’s safe or maybe what’s expected of them and not pursuing what would make them happy.

Gary Crotaz 40:01
And I want the people listening to really tune into what you just said and think about, Is that me? And you know, that could be a really, really powerful thing to come out with this kind of conversation, and you put it so well. So, what did you learn about yourself? In that moment, when you switched from, At some point I was going to, I knew I was gonna do this. And now I know, it’s this moment, and you decided to back yourself?

Micah Lorenc 40:32
Yeah, the, the thing that comes to mind first, I don’t know that this is the most important thing I learned about myself. But for some reason, it’s important enough that it came to mind, is that I, it was almost comforting to know that I was able to sacrifice myself for over 10 years to, to align with my values, I never gave up my values. While I was in a job that I didn’t like, I made the best of it. And I did what I felt like was the best thing for my family, I put other people above myself. And I think some of that comes from experiences I had in high school, in my, just in my youth, when I put myself above others only, and to be able to look back on, on the 11 years that I was in the corporate world and say, you know what, I, I spent over a decade putting others first in alignment with my values, it’s time to do both. I’m going to attempt both, I’m not going to sacrifice my values. But I’m going to put myself up there too. And I’m going to meet my own needs. So looking back, it was still kind of cool to know, I was able to, to exhibit that kind of selfless sacrifice in a lot of ways. But, but it was still, I don’t know, maybe I needed that for my own personal growth. But that’s, I guess that’s what what comes to mind more than anything.

Gary Crotaz 42:08
I love that idea of, by looking after yourself, you’re looking after everyone around you. Because you’re bringing your best self to your life, too. And I think there are a lot of people who a little bit sort of hair-shirt kind of mentality where they’re like, Well, I’m suffering to make everybody else happy. Yeah, what if you weren’t suffering, and they were, they were living in the same house, as you, imagine how much more fun that would be?!

Micah Lorenc 42:33
Isn’t that interesting?! And I’ve experienced that too. I mean, having three kids and my wife and I’m at home, almost all day, every day, now, unless I’m travelling to do a workshop, which isn’t that often, I’m not gone nearly as much as I was during my corporate job. And I’m happier while I’m here. So it is interesting that I say that as if that was an assumption I was making all along. I’m sacrificing myself, or my own wants and needs, for the benefit of my family. But in reality, as I have taken more, put more effort into meeting my own needs, and pursuing what brings me joy in my career, I’m better for them. And they are benefiting more as well, because they get a better me. Which means that the last 11 years of my corporate experience was sacrifice under false assumptions compared to what I’m actually providing for them today, which is better. That’s interesting.

Gary Crotaz 43:33
I love that. And you certainly know it’s not all, you know, it’s not all sweetness and light, all champagne and roses, you know, you’re not earning the money that you used to, so you’re having to make compromises, you’re having to make sacrifices. So it’s a shift in priorities. And I think this is very important, because it’s easy to listen to people on podcasts who say, Well, you know, I made this incredibly risky move. And, you know, I made millions out of that, and therefore everybody else should quit their job. And of course, that’s not great advice for 99% of people in the workplace. But you know, when when you made the choice that you did, you made it in a very rational way, you know, you thought very carefully about it, you ran your spreadsheets, you thought about your budgets, you thought about all those things, and you talked to the people around you. So what advice would you give to other people who are feeling like you did in that moment, based on the experience that you’ve had?

Micah Lorenc 44:33
I, I think that some people are going to… There are plenty of people, and they’re probably not listening to this podcast, who are perfectly happy with what they’re doing. And sometimes I hear people talk about being able to compartmentalise their life and say, I don’t like what I do at work, but I don’t mind because I just go home and I do what I like after work, and the stability and the income is exactly, it’s the exact situation that they want. And I love that, I love that there, there’s some balance in, in society, that not all of us want to go be entrepreneurs. But for those of you who do feel that draw, like I’m not doing what I need to be doing, and I need to be pursuing what brings me joy, I would say for one, take your, take your time, understanding what, what needs to be in place for you to quit your job. I definitely don’t recommend that people go out today and be like, I’m starting my business and, and you’re out of here, and you say I quit to my boss, you are probably not prepared unless you’re independently wealthy, to ramp up a business. I hear from most of the people I’ve worked with, entrepreneurs who, and small business practice owners, that it takes two years to stay in the black to actually make money consistently. That’s been my experience, too. I have as many good months as I do bad months. And in one year of doing this, it’s, I’m, I’m levelling out, but it’s still not 100% in the black months. So we had a year’s worth of savings, at a bare minimum budget, meaning if I didn’t make any money, we would last for a year, of course, I started making money in month two, month three and beyond. And so I’ve extended that timeline to two years, as I’ve grown my business and built it up. What I wish I had done differently is I could have, I could have been building my practice and building my business and building my network. In nights, on nights and weekends, for much longer than I did. I was pre-, I think premature quitting my job, I could have kept building my business and had a full time income without cheating, either way, I think, to keep my integrity and not be using my work hours to build my own business, I didn’t need to do that, I had time on nights and weekends, to build up my business, know that there’s a market, and even start building a clientele until I had some revenue and the demand to justify, hey, I can quit my job now – I created this opportunity for myself. So I think, I think, I hope people notice, it’s not just a flip of switch, I’m doing this or I’m doing that. You can, it takes work, and it’s hard. But you can do both, as a transition into doing what you love and starting your own whatever it is that you want to do.

Gary Crotaz 47:31
That’s fantastic. And now, if you do have some money in the bank, and you want to spend it all then you can do what I did and then write a book and try and self-publish, which takes you from a, I’ve got a reasonable runway ahead of me to, I got to some point where I, and I did write about this on LinkedIn, I was like, I, in my in my corporate career, I got to a place where I could never have imagined that I was like I can’t afford to replace my shoes. But actually coming up to publishing the book. I was like, I literally can’t afford to replace my shoes. And for the first time in 25 years, since I was a student, I took the laces out of a pair of shoes with a hole in the bottom, and put the laces in the shoes where the laces are broken, but the rest of the shoe was fine. And I was like, but I’m on Zoom, so nobody needs to see. And people that I’ve worked with, were like, What do you mean you did that. I mean, like, you know, I was in quite a high profile, you know, corporate jobs before, and I said not but it’s because I’m doing the thing that I love to do. And so I’ve absolutely chosen to not be able to afford new shoes.

Micah Lorenc 48:26
And we’ve done the same thing. Just, just so that people aren’t under the illusion that we’re, we’re rolling in money in your first couple of years of business. And I know you make, you make incredible sacrifices, especially if you’re coming from a well-paying job, that it does help to have eyes wide open about what to expect. We haven’t purchased new clothes in the last, not for us, our kids, our kids are growing, they need new clothes. But my wife and I haven’t, haven’t purchased any new clothes for ourselves, in the last 12 months, we sold one of our cars, and we are down to one car in, in a rural town. We live in a rural town where the nearest store is a 10 minute drive from here. And most things like church and other, other stores that we need to go to are a 20 minute drive. So we, we have definitely sacrificed a lot of the spending that we were used to to keep a bare bones budget and make this last long enough for my business to grow and cover all of our expenses. And then, and then hopefully over time, more. But yeah, it takes sacrifice.

Gary Crotaz 49:29
And that’s important for people to hear, because it’s not only that, it’s not, as you say that only the people that are independently wealthy who can, who can do something like this, but you do have to be prepared to shift your expectations from where you were living before.

Micah Lorenc 49:41
Yeah, great. I was just gonna say, there’s a great quote, I don’t remember who said this, and I’m going to paraphrase it because I don’t remember the exact words but it’s something like, Don’t give up what you want most for what you want now. And that’s always resonated with me that we live in a world where instant gratification has been made the social norm, and we, we get packages quickly, we can go to the store for whatever we need in most first world countries, and, and we’ve gotten so used to meeting our now needs that learning to sacrifice can be extremely challenging for some people. But keeping that mindset of what do I want most and have, anchoring to that helps it, helps make it a little bit easier to sacrifice what I want now.

Gary Crotaz 50:30
Fantastic. So, you know, we’re coming up to the sort of quarter way through 2022. What does this year hold for you? And what, what have you got coming up? What are you looking forward to?

Micah Lorenc 50:43
Yeah, I’ve got I mean, there are a couple of things that I’m working on. Some of them are coaching-related, some of them aren’t – part of the the fun that I’ve had, starting my own businesses that I’m not restricted to one lane, I can try multiple things. So I’ve just recently launched a, an online course that uses strengths-based development principles from the CliftonStrengths assessment. But it’s applied to new leaders. And that’s at my website at micahlorenc.com, if anybody’s interested in that. And, so I just released that. I’m working on, because I work with so many startup founders and startups. I’m about to launch a one-year programme for new startup founders to take them through a programme where they’re matched with a mentor, matched with a coach. They’re given a community of other startup founders, and facilitated workshops with their startup leadership teams so that they can kind of grow into being a startup founder when all of a sudden they have a lot of money to run a business by being funded by venture capital companies, and don’t really know what to do with it. So that’s something I’m really excited about personally, kind of doing research right now. And then I’m also about to launch a second children’s book that I 100% do for fun, I have not made any money, I bought my first, my first children’s book, and don’t expect to make any money on my second children’s book. But it’s another one of those creative outlets that I make time for and have time for now, as I have my own business, to just pursue things that bring me joy. And that’s one of them.

Gary Crotaz 52:21
Fantastic. And where can people find out more about you?

Micah Lorenc 52:24
I am so active on LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn. My last name is spelled odd. So take a look at the show notes and make sure you get my last name right but Micah Lorenc at LinkedIn or MicahLorenc.com. That’s those are the two best places to find me.

Gary Crotaz 52:42
Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. What Micah demonstrates is a clarity of purpose, to bring understanding and hope to others through understanding your strengths and through the power of the coaching partnership. He is a brilliant coach and a constant force of positive energy. As you’ve heard him tell his story, you’ve listened to someone making meaning of their journey to finding passion and purpose and joy in the career they’ve chosen. I hope you’ve enjoyed listening to him as much as I have. Micah, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment, sharing your stories and lessons so vividly. And best of luck with your future endeavours.

Micah Lorenc 53:22
Thank you, Gary. It was truly my pleasure.

Gary Crotaz 53:25
Thank you. This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you will be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today, I’m delighted to have my very good friends Nazar Batih and Mariko Cantley on the show. Nazar is from Ukraine, and I just want to say before we start that our thoughts with Nazar, his family and friends and all those impacted by the terrible atrocities that are happening in Ukraine as we’re recording this podcast. Nazar and Mariko are champion professional ballroom dancers based in Boston, Massachusetts. Dancing together for 10 years, they are two times United States Ballroom Showdance Champions, World Ballroom Showdance silver medalists, and three times World Ballroom Showdance finalists. In 2009, Nazar was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes. At that time, most dancers and athletes with this diagnosis gave up their vocation. Instead, Nazar decided to start competing professionally. Nazar and Mariko describe their goal as to make the world of ballroom dance more inclusive, and build a supportive community of fellow ballroom dance nerds. I adore these two people who are driven, committed, passionate about their craft and determined to make a difference in this world. I know you’ll enjoy hearing about their story. Nazar and Mariko, welcome to The Unlock Moment.

Mariko Cantley 2:11
Hello, thank you for having us. We’re really happy to be here and to be able to spend some time with you, Gary.

Nazar Batih 2:17
Hi, thank you for having us again. Yeah. And to spend time with you. And thank you for mentioning again, Ukraine. With a tough time right now. Yep. Thank you.

Gary Crotaz 2:27
So let’s start out. Tell us a little bit about your background. Maybe Mariko, start start with, you know, where did you start dancing? And what was your journey to become the professional dancer that you are today?

Mariko Cantley 2:40
I started dancing at the age of five, just as many five year olds do. Just dance seems awesome! And over the years, I grew to love it and more and more. My family is very academic. Every person in my immediately immediate family has a Harvard degree. So that wasn’t like a conventional path in in the environment where I grew up. And so I did end up going to college, I got my Harvard degree. And while I was there, I discovered ballroom dancing. So after having done ballet for most of my childhood quite seriously, I discovered ballroom, I thought it was just everything. I mean, it was glamorous, it was sexy. It was cool. It was different. It was competitive. It was all this cool stuff. And so I, while I was there, I in school, I danced more and more seriously, and my senior year actually, I turned professional and have been teaching and competing professionally since then. And that’s sort of how I ended up here.

Gary Crotaz 3:49
And how common is that to turn professional as a dancer after college.

Mariko Cantley 3:54
Not super-common, but not you know, completely unheard of. And I think increasingly, there are people like me who came out of university dance teams who decided to go into that as their profession. So it’s getting, it’s getting more common.

Gary Crotaz 4:12
And at that time, what was it that made you think – This, this is my career ahead of me?

Mariko Cantley 4:19
Well, it was a combination of the fact that I had … that was my childhood dream like you know, as a, as a 12 year old I wanted to be a professional ballerina and I wanted to dance professionally, and my role models were largely dancers and dance teachers. And when I got to university, even going to a place with as many kind of incredible opportunities and things to see and learn about as Harvard, there was frankly nothing there that I found more interesting to do than that. And that was kind of like the, what sort of set my resolve like well, if there’s nothing here that’s as attractive to me as dance then I should probably try being a professional dancer.

Gary Crotaz 5:05
And it was a side hustle alongside a day job or your full time thing when you graduated?

Mariko Cantley 5:11
It was, I, for maybe about a year, I had two day jobs, I worked for the ballet company that I trained with growing up, doing kind of like fundraising stuff for them. And I worked for an architect doing basically model building and stuff. You know, they were just kind of like normal office jobs. But within a year, I basically switched over to teaching full time. And just being a professional dancer,

Gary Crotaz 5:37
It’s all grown from there?

Mariko Cantley 5:39
Yep.

Gary Crotaz 5:41
So Nazar, tell us about your upbringing and how you came to dance.

Nazar Batih 5:44
As you have said before, I, I was born and raised, as you mentioned before, in Ukraine, a city called Lviv, it’s western part of Ukraine. There was a little studio around the corner near the house, and my mom decided that maybe he should start dancing versus my dad wanted me to be a soccer player. Yeah, but, but, you know, they brought me in when I was five into the studio, and I loved it. And you know it took over my, I would say my entire life, right? I was, I was dancing until, until my teenage years, like about 18, 19 years old, the same time when I finished high school after that, I went to university because you know, at home was everyone. If you want to have a, you know, future you have to finish university, you have to have a higher education. So I finished veterinarian school. And after that, after I finished veterinarian school, I, I was still, I was still dancing, but not as competing, just, you know, teaching kids. But then I got the opportunity, I was invited by United States of America to move here and teach here in the studio and franchise studios. So I, I took that opportunity and moved here. And then since 2006 I am living and working here in the United States.

Gary Crotaz 7:21
And you’ve got a family here as well in the US?

Nazar Batih 7:24
Yeah, yeah, I do have a family, I have wife I have son. He is now six years old. And so yeah, we are all here but are they have, my wife is American so.

Gary Crotaz 7:37
And it was when you came over to the States, you’d already been here for a little while before you were diagnosed with diabetes?

Nazar Batih 7:43
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2009. And yeah, that’s, yeah, that was, I was living here already. And then, you know, no one knows why it happened. For what reason. But you know, there’s a lot of speculation by the medical doctors, like, you know, could be a stress, could be like changing over environments and stuff.

Gary Crotaz 8:08
And what was the journey that you went through at that time to decide what happened next, I mean we described in the introduction, that there was a pivot point where you you were thinking about do I quit or do I…

Nazar Batih 8:20
Well, yeah, I’d say actually, there’s you said, you said it quite right, like it was a turning point for me like You know what, Nazar, you have to go and continue dancing because I have heard so many people like athletes you know, they’ve been diagnosed with diabetes and they they quit, simply, saying like, well I won’t be able to do it. For me it was opposite, as kind of You know what, it was kind of an eye opening. No, I actually do it opposite, I’ll go and show people that actually you can do it and you have to do that – nothing has to stop you.

Gary Crotaz 8:58
And you built a … sorry Mariko

Mariko Cantley 9:00
You’re gonna say that’s like a classic Nazar behaviour. He does not like to be told that he can’t do something. And he’s very, very stubborn.

Nazar Batih 9:09
Yeah, yeah.

Gary Crotaz 9:11
And just bring bring to life for the listeners. What, what does it mean as a professional dancer to be diabetic? What, what, how does that affect you on a day to day basis?

Nazar Batih 9:24
Well, it’s, it’s constant monitoring your sugar levels, constant monitoring what you eat, when you eat, being on top of the meditating, so, or just trying to bring, because each stress level brings your sugar high and then if you have a high sugar then it can affect, can have effect on your body, but the same time you don’t want to be too low because when you competing or practising if you get in too low you also can faint on, you can get into hospital. So it’s just kind of constant, like it’s a change of life in the sense of before you thought like, well, I can eat whatever I want, I can do whatever I want. And now you have something else that you have to monitor, and you have to be on top of that, and not let it be, you know, like, not let it be in the way even though it’s still constantly on being in your way, right?

Gary Crotaz 10:26
And how intensive is the training as a professional dancer? So you know, that training that you’re having to balance your sugar levels with, what’s the typical day look like, you know, when you’re training for a big competition?

Nazar Batih 10:40
Our typical day, it’s…

Mariko Cantley 10:44
We kind of have like, I would say, there’s, there’s no such thing as a typical day, but we have multiple types of days. So we have our ideal training days, which involve a couple of hours in the studio practising, either doing technical practice, or where we kind of run through things like competition simulation, some kind of cross training, so depending on what we need to work on, we’ve done you know, we’ve done running, we’ve done fitness, training, strength training, yoga, whatever.

Nazar Batih 11:13
We’ve done boxing…

Mariko Cantley 11:14
Boxing, yeah. Whatever we needed that time. And then so about half of our day is spent on that. And then half of the day we spend teaching. So Nazar, his students that he teaches and dances with and competes with as well. And then we have couples that we teach, where, you know, they dance with each other. And then a lot, there’s a lot of logistical stuff. So we travel a lot, our coaches are all over the place, we have coaches in New Jersey, which is about a four hour drive from our studio, where we, where we train, we have teachers in Italy, we have teachers in London, we can, now because thanks to thanks to COVID, we have all figured out how to do Zoom lessons. So it’s coordinating all of that. So a good chunk of our time is also spent trying to get from place to place and, and…

Nazar Batih 12:04
Not only physical, physical work, but also like coordinating and mental work in that sense as well.

Mariko Cantley 12:12
…strategizing…

Gary Crotaz 12:13
And then and then bring to life, what does competition look like for a professional dancer in terms of, again, sort of the intensity, what, what those days look like when you’re at a big competition?

Mariko Cantley 12:27
So for a big competition, the biggest events are basically full day events. So you, I mean, for us, that means we start, they obviously start preparing months in advance, but the…

Nazar Batih 12:37
That’s physical training months in advance, that’s the mechanical training, that’s all of that, that you can survive also the whole day, the whole day event, like to dance it and as well, as well as Mariko saying,

Mariko Cantley 12:51
And then, you know, you sort of are thoughtful about getting enough sleep the night before, what you’re going to eat in the morning.

Nazar Batih 12:58
What are you going to eat night before.

Mariko Cantley 12:59
What you’re going to eat the night before, make sure that all of your costumes and everything, all of your snacks, especially for Nazar, it’s super-important that we have, like snacks that are going to help him regulate his sugar. One big, like shift for us was finding an electrolyte product that didn’t have any kind of sweetener or sugar in it. So that he can hydrate but not have it influence his blood sugar levels. And then you’re doing rounds over the course of the day. So you, you warm up, and then you dance your first round of five dances. And then oftentimes with the break between each dance, then maybe an hour later, you do the second round after you get recalled and then you repeat, and then hopefully you do that for you know, a total of maybe six or seven hours to make it all the way into the finals. And then you go home, have a glass of champagne and pass out!

Gary Crotaz 13:53
And I understand this because, you know, as people know that, you know, I was also a professional dancer, but for for listeners that that don’t really understand the dance world, I think it’s helped to bring that to life a bit. Because if you think about things like, I don’t know, you know, Olympic athletics or something, you know, where people run 100 metres in 9.9 seconds, and then come back the next day and do it again. In the dance world, your first round might be at nine o’clock in the morning. And then you might do you know, seven rounds through the course of the day. And do your final at 10pm at night.

Nazar Batih 14:24
Right Gary? There’s we can start at 10 o’clock, 9 o’clock in the morning, the first round. Yeah, and the second round could be 12 midday, but the last round of the same day event is happening as you said 10pm or 11…

Mariko Cantley 14:39
We danced at one in the morning…

Nazar Batih 14:40
Yeah we danced in 1 o’clock in the morning by starting also at 12 in afternoon so it just, it’s just, it’s the whole day and you think it’s just, it’s not like Yeah, I mean, it’s also tough to be an Olympic athlete who’s runner you run nine seconds and you have rest till next day, but the same time we have the same nine seconds running from 9 o’clock in the morning to midnight sometimes, right?

Gary Crotaz 15:05
Yeah, yeah. And you said that you trained, you know, in the US, in the UK and in Italy. So you’re doing a lot of travelling around and planning to do that. And I think that brings us into the beginnings of, of what you’re describing here as your Unlock Moment. So bring us into this, this, this particular moment that you want to talk about, this, this moment of clarity that you found at a certain point in your dance career together.

Mariko Cantley 15:31
So for a little kind of lead into the, we started dancing together in 2012. And we, one of the things that definitely brought us together was that we shared an idea of like, what we wanted our dancing to be individually. And our, we shared, we had the same sort of model couple that we had looked up to and admired as as dancers and competitors. And their names are William Pino and Alessandra Bucciarelli, and they are based in Italy. And for both of us, it had been a dream to be able to go and work with them. They had never, as far as we knew, come to the United States to teach or, I mean they probably had, but maybe before we started dancing, they were not available to us at all. And we knew we would have to go there to to see them. We didn’t even know how to contact them, like we actually emailed Gary’s wife Mildred, to ask if she had their email address. And it took a long time just to contact them and then to schedule something and find a date to go and but it was just something, and it was kind of just like, well, that’s just a moonshot, like it’s just a dream that we’ve had. And let’s just do it. Because what the heck. And so we we organised this trip, we were flying from…

Nazar Batih 16:55
Nationals, nationals that year, there was nationals, we flying, and we literally, it, as Mariko’s saying, it took us like half a year to organise a trip to go to have three lessons. With the people that we never met? Like you fly 10 hours to little town Aprilia, Italy, right near the Rome, near Rome. And then yeah, and just to have three lessons. And then I think as Mariko then say like, you know, after we, we took, when we, when you get the first lesson, you know, when you get there there’s excitement, we get the first lesson. You just like, oh, that’s how it feels like it, you know, that’s how it’s supposed to be. That’s, that’s what kind of information you should get. You know, that’s, that, I think, from both of us was kind of like, oh, shoot, that’s, that’s probably Unlock Moment as well, we were talking right now about it just like, realisation, what can be and what can happen and how can, why it’s like this, right?

Mariko Cantley 17:58
Yeah. Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 17:59
So you’ve flown to Italy. You’re in that first lesson with them. And they were saying something to you that changed your whole thinking about dance.

Mariko Cantley 18:08
Yeah, that’s…

Nazar Batih 18:09
Yeah, you don’t, I mean, yeah, it’s in the lesson, you’re in shock right? You… By that time, I was dancing for quite a long, long time.

Mariko Cantley 18:17
We had been professionals, both of us, for six years by then, you know, like…

Nazar Batih 18:21
Yeah, that’s probably more. Yeah, yes. About six, seven years professionals. Yeah. But then before that, I’m dancing already for, you know, another 15 years probably, and, you know, like, when you just, when someone tells you something that you like, well, I should have heard that before, like, 15, 20 years ago. And you’re like…

Mariko Cantley 18:40
What have I been doing? Yeah, I thought I was doing ballroom dancing, but what have I’ve been doing this whole time? So I totally agree with Nazar, during the lesson, you’re kind of, I mean, you, it is sort of this shock, like, you’re so excited to be in the flesh, like in, in the presence, working with these people you’ve been dreaming of working with and watching on video, and the shock of the environment of the studio, just the whole energy of the space, but also what was going on around us, the other couples, what the atmosphere was like, was completely different. And the, you’re just, and then the information itself, like you’re absorbing all of this stuff that’s very new and and you kind of can’t assess what it is happening. But then afterwards, we took the train back to Rome, which was where we were staying. And I vividly remember sitting on this, like Italian commuter train…

Nazar Batih 19:36
Which is really nice. I don’t know, it sounded like…

Mariko Cantley 19:40
It is like, really kind of like mundane, like everyday environment. And being so angry. I just was like, overwhelmed with anger. And, and kind of thinking like, well, that’s not how I expected to feel after this. I didn’t expect to have this incredible experience that we’d planned and dreamed about and then feel really angry afterwards.

Gary Crotaz 20:03
And what was the anger?

Mariko Cantley 20:05
And the anger is when we spent that 45 minute trip sort of talking about it. Because I was like, why am I so angry? And it was this sense of like, I think a lot of people have experienced this where you, you, the thing you want, it happens, and you’re just like, why isn’t this happened before? Or why didn’t I do this before? Or how have I been wasting my time? Or? Why didn’t someone tell me about this? All of those things where you, you feel kind of like the loss of what you could have had? If you’ve just had that experience earlier?

Nazar Batih 20:36
Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it’s like, yeah, it might, maybe it’s not like why no one, tell us tell us this way. Maybe they were telling us, but…

Mariko Cantley 20:45
…we couldn’t hear it…

Nazar Batih 20:46
Or you, either we couldn’t hear it, or it was told the way that, you know, not being understandable. You know, and then just like becomes like a little bit? Well, it’s much more simple as some other people would telling us, right.

Gary Crotaz 21:00
So that’s interesting. So you had a moment of clarity. And it felt simple. Because you got it, you understood the essence of it very quickly. But you were angry, in some way, because it felt so simple.

Mariko Cantley 21:15
Yeah, we actually, were just talking to one of our students about this recently, which was that, and as we talked about The Unlock Moment, sort of, you know, I’m thinking maybe this is part of it, that when you get to a certain point of say professionalism, or, or experience, to realise that there’s like, a whole other thing that you could be doing is a little bit, it implies that like, you haven’t been doing it, right, right. So it, it sort of makes you feel like Oh, I’m, I’ve been quote unquote, “failing”, or there’s something wrong with me that I haven’t done it. And that’s very disturbing and very destabilising. And, and I think, you know, it’s, a lot of people might, under, depending on the circumstances then resist that, right. You don’t want to, if you don’t really want to realise that, realising that there’s something else means that realising that what you’ve been doing isn’t quite it. And, and that’s not easy on the ego. But maybe as Nazar was saying something about, like, how we envision this, like making this journey, literal journey, like to a faraway, unfamiliar place, and being in this completely different environment made it possible to, to be open to that, to be open to that, and accept it and take it on.

Gary Crotaz 22:36
And it’s interesting, when I observe you both talking about it, I can see firstly, how visceral and vivid this still is for, you know, years on and how challenging it was for you at that time, because it was challenging a lot of your foundations, a lot of the things you built a career on, and built a, you know, a whole skillset and ability on. And I don’t know if this is answerable. But I’m imagining, you know, if there are listeners who are not in the dance world, is it possible to bring to life, you know, like, in an example, what it is that somebody can tell you, when you’ve been dancing for 20 years? That feels revelatory in that moment?

Mariko Cantley 23:18
So we were, you know, we just came and showed our dancing and, and we were, this was in the lesson with William. And he said, Well, you know, you have some, you’re experienced, you have some skills, but you’re not actually transferring your weight fully from foot to foot.

Nazar Batih 23:33
You’re not fully on the foot. Like, well, we’re standing right in front of you on the foot. You know, like, it’s just kind of it became like, What do you mean, I’m not on the foot? I spent my whole life to be on one foot. Like, try to improve my dancing.

Mariko Cantley 23:47
Yeah, yeah. But if you think of like, what is the most fundamental thing you do as a dancer, it’s probably like, stand on your leg. And then we did it. He showed us and you’re like, Yes. Okay, I … that’s what 100% is!

Nazar Batih 23:59
Like, it is like doing your work, it’s like doing your job and not doing 100%. Yeah, so what’s the point of doing your job?

Mariko Cantley 24:05
Also the fact that it was so concrete was something that you can imagine in the dance world? That’s not like the usual approach. There’s a lot of metaphor, and sort of hand waving and, and yeah, descriptive language.

Nazar Batih 24:21
Yeah, I mean, let me one more thing to add after it. That, for me, I had mentioned before that Unlock Moment, this is one of the Unlock Moment for me. One more was that, it’s my Unlock Moment is also when I was diagnosed with diabetes, if I just put it there, just like okay, I got diagnosed with diabetes like well, that’s Unlock Moment, okay, I have to do something about that. Don’t give up and just continue doing more actually, in my case, and to show, you know, to show kids and adults or other athletes that they still can do it.

Gary Crotaz 25:00
So almost as a similarity between those two moments you’re describing, you know, one when you’re diagnosed with diabetes, and two, when you go to Italy, after 20 odd years of dancing, and somebody tells you you don’t know how to stand. And in both of those situations, your response could be to quit, and say, Well, you know, that’s it then, if I’ve got diabetes, or I don’t know how to stand after 20 years of training, you could quit. Or you could go, I’m going to do something about that. And it might be helpful with with … I’m hoping you’re happy to do this … bring to life a little bit, what William’s like as a person, because I think I think describing that just sort of helps paint the picture of that experience of being in that studio. It’s what’s he like, as a as a teacher, as a coach?

Nazar Batih 25:50
It’s both of them. William and his wife, Alessandra. What they like as people, I mean they are genuine people. Really genuine, they really, I’ll say down to earth people, you know, they they’re not going to give you some BS, they’re going to tell you what it is. Right? And how it is.

Mariko Cantley 26:10
And you, when you, right away, even though we had never, I remember also very clearly, we never met them before. We’d only watched videos of their dancing. I remember having this sense that you, you know them right away.

Nazar Batih 26:23
Yeah, almost like immediately part of family.

Mariko Cantley 26:26
Yeah.

Nazar Batih 26:26
And it’s like is like immediately like, that’s kind of warm feeling. Right. Okay. They just, yeah, it just they invite you to be…

Mariko Cantley 26:35
There’s no facade. There’s no … yeah. And even how they were, I think we even said this to each other. They’re so themselves as dancers. I think that was what was very attractive to us, too, is that when you, then when we then met them, you almost have this feeling of like, Oh, I know these people because who I, who I saw in their performance really is who they are. Or is, obviously people are complex, but like that was very honest. It wasn’t like you see someone perform, and you meet them in person, and you’re like, Wow, this is a totally different person. That was definitely a big part. And something that also is like, notable in maybe in performing arts in general. Like it’s not easy to be a performing artist and also be totally, you know, in a way vulnerably yourself.

Nazar Batih 27:22
Yeah, well, yeah, at same time yet they, they are quite tough, right? With their with, with their students, with their pupils, who they’re, like, you know, other couples and with us, but it doesn’t feel like well, you know, this like, like tough but impossible to do it, what they’re asking you to do.

Mariko Cantley 27:44
Yes, demanding with a lot of, very demanding and very supportive at the same time.

Gary Crotaz 27:50
So you’re on this train journey back from the studio, furious, you get back to back to the hotel. And what happened next in the journey?

Mariko Cantley 27:58
The, very quickly, we were like, how do we … it took us six months to get here for three lessons. It’s, we’re in, we’re not only in Italy, but we’re in, we have to go to this small town 45 minutes out of, from the closest major city. How do we get here as much as possible?

Nazar Batih 28:18
Yeah, and then started, first it started, okay, we should come here maybe every half a year, every eight months, then it’s changed to every half a year four months. Now, now it’s about before the pandemic, we were

Mariko Cantley 28:37
Like six times a year…

Nazar Batih 28:38
Six times a year. So almost every, every two months, they almost, depends on the schedule, because we have to be in in Europe for three major competitions which are happening in, in UK, so. And then we tried to combine those trips, there was at least three times right, but then that was not enough.

Mariko Cantley 29:00
Yeah, then, actually, during the pandemic, we were like, at some point, we’re like, oh, wow, we can just have lessons every week now.

Nazar Batih 29:07
Yeah, because of the Zoom.

Gary Crotaz 29:09
Yeah, because it’s over Zoom. So, so this is really interesting. So you’ve travelled halfway around the world, almost halfway around the world into a little studio, and somebody’s giving you some feedback that you found maybe more challenging than any feedback, you’ve got in another dancing lesson, that your initial reaction to was anger, not with them, but with receiving that. And your response to that, progressively over time, was how can I go back and get more?

Nazar Batih 29:39
Yeah, well, this is the, I think it is, yeah, this is just…

Gary Crotaz 29:44
So, so why?

Nazar Batih 29:45
This part of my, I think is part of my…

Mariko Cantley 29:49
I mean that’s that’s, I was gonna say that’s sort of another great parallel between when Nazar was diagnosed, which is like, Oh, here’s something incredibly difficult to deal with. How can I make this more difficult?

Nazar Batih 29:59
Yeah, exactly.

Gary Crotaz 30:02
So I’m hearing you lean into the challenge?

Nazar Batih 30:05
Yeah, if you give me a strong challenge, it doesn’t mean that it’s all gonna give up.

Gary Crotaz 30:10
And the feedback they’re giving you is different from the feedback you’ve received from other people?

Nazar Batih 30:16
It’s clear, as I said before, it could be the same, but it’s so much clearer and so much easier to understand. Right. But the other people could say the same, the same thing, other way not as clear and coming, like, you know, from around you and trying to explain to you is, was the, you know, super big words. And I don’t need big words, I need to say, as I was said, before, I was told before, on the first lesson, well you’re not on your foot, so you know you’re not 100% on your foot, instead of giving me this, you know, elaborate explanation how to be on my foot. Okay. Simple.

Gary Crotaz 30:54
So the right message delivered in the right way for you.

Nazar Batih 30:59
Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 30:59
…that you connected with? landed?

Nazar Batih 31:02
Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 31:03
And it wasn’t a happy landing, because there was, it was an honest truth. And what built that trust in them, that meant that you started to shape your career around Italy and getting to Italy as as often as possible? And how was, what was that shift for you?

Mariko Cantley 31:20
I think one part was that it was clear right away from the lessons, from how they were themselves, like just seeing them as teachers, as professional dancers, how they operated, and also, how the other couples in the studio were, it was very clear, all of that together, painted a very clear picture of – this is like another level. And, you know, subsequently, we’ve, we’re more aware of this consciously. But subconsciously, I think we realised the more that we can just like be in that pool, the more that we will be like that, right? That you have to sort of immerse yourself in an environment of excellence, if you want to be excellent, or that’s the best way to do it. And we both have always wanted that, to just be, I think we just both are super attracted to that. Just if that’s out there, like, you know, you want it, if it’s possible to be that, why would you not want to go after that. Life is short, like what else you’re going to do, you know?!

Gary Crotaz 32:25
And I’m hoping people listening to this conversation will tune into this thing that you’re articulating, which is a moment of clarity, difficult clarity, turned into a wider clarity about the bigger picture. So what you were there to do, how you were going to do it, what it was all about for you. And as you said just then, the two of you were really clear on why you do what you do. And that sort of sense of emerging clarity coming out of that relationship as well.

Mariko Cantley 32:58
Yeah, I think the clarity was this sense of, you know, stories are neat in retrospect. But obviously, we saw the product of their dancing, of William and Alessandra’s dancing, and both were like, Wow, that’s cool. We want to do that. You know, just like kids see their heroes, they’re like, Wow, I want to be like Michael Jordan, or whatever. But then to go there and be in their environment and be around them and see, okay, this is what made that, that kind of clarity of, you can see the end product, but then you can see what went into that or what’s behind that. And what in reality, you know, not from what people are, stories people are telling or, or hearsay, just actually to physically experience it with all of your senses. And see, okay, this is what we wanted that, we were drawn to that kind of dancing, and this is the situation and the people that created that kind of dancing, and that’s now vivid.

Nazar Batih 33:54
It was just a reality. Now, it’s reality, right? Easy. Yeah. So something Yeah, like some kids could could, as Mariko said, some kids could dream. Some kids could dream about some superheroes. And, you know, and you’re going to be dreaming and dreaming, dreaming and never have a chance to, to have the dream to come true. Right? And then same time, when you’re dreaming something about something and that dream to come to come true become true, then you’re like, oh, then you’d like in it. And you, it takes time to realise it. Oh, that’s actually happened. You know.

Gary Crotaz 34:32
And talk to me about impact. So you’ve, you’ve, you’ve gone through this experience, you’ve reshaped your training model to be able to get out to Italy frequently to train with these coaches and to train with this group. What happened over the subsequent years in terms of your dancing and your competition results, and how did that change?

Nazar Batih 34:54
It’s, well, it changed quite as you had mentioned before. Well we, we became, we became two times National Champions, right? We were silver, bronze world medalist, three times world finalist in the Showdance. Changed the … people see how much we improved, how much we changed through those years. And people constantly telling us like, well, you, you improve even more, you improve even more, because some, sometimes you can see couples, they stop improving. So that with us, I believe, and what we hear from other people, they see that we constantly improving, right constantly, we, our like bar bar is going higher and higher and higher.

Gary Crotaz 35:53
So ballroom dancing is, is both a sport and an art, really, isn’t it? And so, in a you’re measuring your sporting performance by competition results, do you think you’ve progressed as artists as well?

Nazar Batih 36:06
Oh, yeah. Big time. Big time. Yeah, just…

Mariko Cantley 36:10
I mean, it’s sort of difficult to even like articulate, it’s almost like we’re just different people. So the, if anything, one of the outcomes was that we also then ended up making different decisions about, you know, even choosing to enter into the Showdance category, and then choosing later what other teachers to work with, besides William and Alessandra, and being more both, you know, with them, one of the things that they, they do and explicitly said to us is that as teachers, they teach, they guide their students in everything. So it’s very holistic. So you know, that influenced who, of course, who else we wanted to work with, but then how do we work with those people? How do we approach our training? How do we think about it, we changed how we thought about how we spend our practice time, we changed how we think about our physical training, we changed how we think about which competitions to do and how to spend our time and how to spend our time off and how to like literally every single aspect and…

Nazar Batih 37:17
As you said, also, like, we, we, we have a team of teachers in England that we can now actually on also understand and I can see how those, yeah, I would say understand what the teachers, teachers tells you. But again, that’s a team which, which kind of helps it … integrates together with them. Yeah.

Mariko Cantley 37:47
Yeah, I think that’s super important that, that there’s, you know, in any world, in the world world, in the dancing world, there’s sort of infinite information. So if you don’t have like, a way to navigate that, then it doesn’t help you that all of that information is out there, you have to apply and organise it. And, and that also was a big impact of, of working with them and having them be kind of central to, to our team.

Gary Crotaz 38:15
And has it changed your identity as dancers, do you think?

Mariko Cantley 38:18
I think in a very simple way, you know, there, it’s nice to have just like a role model, where you can to start out with, sort of be like, Okay, how does this person who has been in this longer and achieved things at a higher level, just how do they operate? How do they make decisions? How do they, how are they as a person? So it’s nice to have, it’s always I think, valuable to have that model. But the other thing that I think attracted us to going there in the first place was that they clear even you know, in their, in their dancing, but also as people and how they did their career are people who kind of go against the grain, like the importance of doing what they did in the way that aligned with their values, and, and what they wanted to create was always very clearly important.

Nazar Batih 39:07
Yeah, oh, yeah, for us I mean, I think since we started dancing, together, we we were like, you know, it’s like a black sheep. It’s called, like, totally different, tried to be different. And it’s our it’s actually our, I would say motor right? It’s what it is for the like, kind of we tried to be different right? And then I think they helped us to actually to, to, to bring that even higher from like bringing more out of us like you know, because I want to be different I don’t want to be I don’t want to, I don’t want to be as was particularly with ballroom dancing. You don’t want to be the same, you don’t want to be paste and copy of someone else. You want to be you want to be yourself you want to be – I mean my opinion want to be different. You don’t want to be, you don’t want to comply with a form, I would say.

Gary Crotaz 40:05
So the experience really reinforced your difference, and helped you to embrace that as part of your identity.

Nazar Batih 40:11
That’s right. Yeah.

Mariko Cantley 40:13
I mean, I think for me also.

Gary Crotaz 40:16
It’s interesting when, you know, we talked at the beginning about your, your vision to support the community of ballroom dance nerds, there’s something in that that’s about people that are different from the norm a bit. And then I know Mariko, you and I have talked about this in the past this idea of something that’s very inclusive that you want to stand for, in the future.

Mariko Cantley 40:35
Yeah, with the … Yes, we both have aspects of our, of our lives, ourselves, that makes us not easily fit into the, the model of, or the stereotype of what it is to be a ballroom dancer, and that’s challenging. That’s challenging to experience. And so of course, you, you know, when you work through something that’s not easy. At least I think it’s natural to then want to make the path easier for people who come after you. And also because in a very selfish way, you want to be there to be more people like you, right. So, you know, as you said, the beginning with being a person who came into this, like from a university team, that’s when I started, I was quite uncommon. Now there are more and more people doing that. And, of course, that’s cool for me to sort of be like, Oh, look at these people who’ve had a similar path. It’s nice, we share something in common and to want to encourage that. And then, you know, for Nazar with diabetes. Like there aren’t a lot of people who are not sure if we know of any people who who have type one diabetes?

Nazar Batih 41:44
No I mean. Remember that kid when he came into the studio, yeah,

Mariko Cantley 41:48
We know, a couple of young, young people who…

Nazar Batih 41:51
…to come in, you know. And the one quick story that one, we had this someone contacted us like mom of a kid and coming in for a lesson. Okay, so mom, Kim came in with a kid and I see that the boy’s, the boy’s wearing like this CGM, like constant sugar monitor. I’m like, do you have diabetes? And this is kind of like a moment, you know, like, almost again, I felt like, he’s my, he’s my brother or something. And I’m like, this is like, it’s felt like different. And I was so happy that actually, you know he’s dancing. And, you know, it kind of became like, almost like, yeah, like, really? Like, almost made me choked up a little bit, you know, like, the kid is dancing as well. So can you can see,

Gary Crotaz 42:43
That’s a real moment, isn’t it? When when you realise that, you know, maybe you’re inspiring somebody to go do something or to keep going, as you know, as you say that it’s too easy to stop. It’s too easy to stop and you do see, you know, not so much in dancing, but there are sports people, you know, in different environments. You know, Steve Redgrave, the rower you know, Olympic gold medal winning rower who was diabetic and there’s a famous 100 metre sprinter [ed. Aries Merritt, sprint hurdler], who had a kidney transplant, and then went and competed in the, in the Olympics again [ed. kidney transplant not for diabetes, competed post-transplant at the World Championships not Olympics]. So, you know, you do see it, but it, but it’s unusual. And for young people, same as representation, you know, you want young people to see people ahead of them that look like them. So, it’s important, it’s important. So you’ve had this experience coming through your career where something was in front of you, that was almost impossible. On the other side of the world, there’s somebody, there’s a couple who can help us but to go from where we are with our sort of comfortable lives in on the east coast of the States to, you know, frequently travelling and covering, you know, finding the money to pay for all of that, you know, to advance our dance careers for our passion. What advice would you give to people who are looking at something and thinking it just feels too hard?

Mariko Cantley 44:09
I would say my two kind of like mottos for myself are: one is if you have an idea of doing something, just do it. Like just decide you’re going to do it there’s even if you decide you’re going to do it, there’s still a chance that you know, life happens and you can’t, so like, just decide you’re going to do it and and go for it. Why not? Just always, when you find yourself in that place where you’re like, Should I do it? Or should I not do it? Just the answer is always do it. And the other thing for myself is that the fear because when we say there’s, there’s things that are hard because it’s difficult to figure out logistically how to do it. But I think oftentimes the bigger fear or the more the bigger challenge is actually fear. that the worry about Well, is it going to work out or not and the physiological fear that often stops you from working out the logistics. And that that is to see that as actually a good sign that, that to relate to that sensation as actually something positive, not something negative. Those are the things that I, that’s my advice to myself with this kind of thing.

Nazar Batih 45:32
Yeah, for me, if you have that Unlock Moment, just trust it, and grab into it and just continue doing it. Right, don’t give up.

Gary Crotaz 45:42
So at that point of challenge, you need to lean into the challenge. So when you look at, you know, we’re sitting here in early 2022, and you’re, you’re looking at the year ahead, what are the things coming up for you?

Mariko Cantley 45:52
So tomorrow, we’re, we’re doing a, we’re actually doing like a feature length performance, here in Boston, at my ballet school. And, and it’s celebrating our 10 year, basically 10 year anniversary, 10 years of, of dancing together. So that’s the first thing that’s coming up. We’re preparing for the Blackpool Dance Festival, which is probably the most prestigious international ballroom competition in the world. And that’s going to be in May. So we’re ramping up our training for that. And then we’re preparing for the next World Showdance Championships…

Nazar Batih 46:31
…which is, which is still has to be determined when it’s going to happen and where – I mean, hopefully, you know, everything’s going to be okay in the world. And we can do everything what we can do. But yeah, those are the major things what’s happening right now.

Mariko Cantley 46:45
We have this collection of, you know, bronze and silver medals and a fourth place, and we need, need to complete the collection!

Gary Crotaz 46:54
You’re going you’re going for the gold medal.

Mariko Cantley 46:57
Yeah. All the colours.

Gary Crotaz 47:00
I think that would look beautiful on the wall.

Nazar Batih 47:03
It would be perfect. Yeah, yeah.

Gary Crotaz 47:07
And for people that want to follow your journey, how can they do that?

Mariko Cantley 47:12
The easiest way is on Instagram. So our Instagram is @nazarandmariko, and we post photos there and just like updates about what is what we’re up to. And then if you kind of want the more impersonal in depth, experience, if you want to support us, we also have a Patreon which is also @nazarandmariko and that’s where we put kind of the, the content that we don’t necessarily share with the public, like the more heartfelt stories and the rehearsal videos and some kind of content before we put it out before it’s available, sort of generally on the internet to the public. So those are the two best places, Instagram, and Patreon and in both cases, you can find us under @nazarandmariko.

Gary Crotaz 47:59
That’s amazing, and I encourage people listening in to to support Nazar and Mariko on Patreon because it’s an expensive business travelling the world is boring dances and the prize money is is very, very small. People are always amazed when I talk about what the prize money is in ballroom dancing, it’s tiny numbers. And they’re travelling the world and doing these amazing things to inspire young people. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. Nazar and Mariko have chosen to follow their passion for dance in a journey that has taken them around the world, navigating the significant challenges in their way they’ve shown commitment and drive to remain true to their vision to achieve extraordinary goals and inspire others in the process. In doing so they’ve demonstrated the extraordinary power of partnership over the course of a decade. Nazar and Mariko, thank you so much for sharing your story on The Unlock Moment. And I know you’re such an inspiration to young people who are pursuing their dreams. Thank you for being here today.

Nazar Batih 48:56
Thank you.

Mariko Cantley 48:57
Thank you for having us.

Gary Crotaz 49:00
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly, where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ve been meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you will be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m delighted to have Dana Williams on the show. A champion of transforming your life through purpose, Dana’s corporate career encompassed 25 years of marketing and leadership at Southwest Airlines. She has coached over 500 clients to success and created the first Gallup strengths-based daily planner, the Strengths Journal, she is a Gallup-certified strengths coach, and has seen the transformational power of accountability. As busy leaders, we want to accomplish goals but need an easy plan designed for our individual needs. Dana is an inspiring coach, author and leader. We’ve been working together for the past year, on her Dominate Your Day Clubhouse rooms. I know you’ll enjoy hearing about her journey, and how she’s navigated the forks in the road. Dana, welcome to The Unlock Moment.

Dana Williams 1:48
Thank you so much. I appreciate you inviting me to your new podcast. So excited to be here!

Gary Crotaz 1:52
I’m so excited. You’re here. So let’s start out. Take us back a little bit. And tell us a little bit about your story of your journey through to senior leadership in Southwest Airlines.

Dana Williams 2:05
Yes. So I actually started at Southwest Airlines when the company was 10 years old. They’re now 50 years old. So it was I was right out of college started and started in in flight. And then quickly at 21 became a manager and had to learn the hard way. I remember asking my boss, am I too young to apply for this manager position. He said no, if you think you can do it, go for it. So I did. And then I loved managing and found that I really loved the whole HR opportunity that I had with managing in the operation area. And so I moved into the HR department. And in the HR department, I was responsible, it was a small group and there was only 5000 employees and I was I learned how to hire how to train, how to develop people. And I was all of 24 at that time. And then my husband and I moved to Nashville, Tennessee. And this was he’s in real estate. And this was the beginning of one of the real estate crashes of our career as husband and wife and we moved to Nashville, didn’t know a soul. And I decided that I had to leave Southwest at that point. And so I decided I wanted to get into marketing, got this opportunity to work for a real estate development company, and became their Marketing Director, opened up the first downtown mall in Nashville at the time. This was in the late 80s, early 90s. And I had a background in retail, which I think you do too. And so I loved it. I really love the whole marketing, developing the marketing plan. We’ve won an award for opening, which is so fun. And from there, we moved back to Dallas. And about four years later, and Southwest came calling again. And this time I got hired in the marketing department because of my marketing experience. And it was so much fun. And I came to Southwest at that point, when they were just starting to grow in California, starting to grow across, acquired another airline. So I’ve actually gone through two acquisitions of other airlines and just grew my way up into marketing. And at that point, I was in my early 40s and decided I really wanted to be home with my daughter and just start my own business. So I started my own business as a consultant, helped start a Christian high school, did a lot of cool volunteer things. And then about 2008 when the market hit again, another crash. My husband got cancer, his partner died and our marriage went in the tank and I was like, wow. And about that time I said maybe it’s time for me to hang up my consulting hat and go back to Southwest and just get a more secure job right now because things were so topsy turvy in my life. And my old leader, I ran into his wife that day and she said, Are you, would you be willing to go back? I’m like, yeah, so they hired me back. And that was my third time. I’m called a boomerang at Southwest. And came back as Marketing Director, had advertising and promotions and communications, all under marketing, and just came in. And it was an exciting time, because I had just come off of 9/11 in 2000, you know, 2001, and they were still coming out of that lost decade of business and hadn’t been growing. And when I got there, it was time to grow. And so we acquired AirTran, which was an airline out of Atlanta, Georgia, I spent a lot of time in Atlanta, getting to know all those employees, worked with their leaders, worked with their marketing department, helped bring all them all together, and worked on some fun campaigns like Bags Fly Free, and just a really exciting time to be in marketing. And it was at that time, I think that I had kind of a pivotal moment, personally, and career-wise about what I was really made to do.

Gary Crotaz 6:12
It’s really interesting. And for me, this is interesting, because we’ve never had this conversation. And we’ve never talked about about your career. And it’s interesting. I mean, you see this a lot in, in retail as well, people who started, you know, on the shop floor, and you know, 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, they’re in senior management, but they’ve got a certain perspective on that business, because, you know, because they know it, end-to-end. And for me, coming into retail, I, I came on a very different path where I’d never worked in a shop, I’d never worked in a warehouse. And actually, you know, it was, I think you a have very different perspective, when you walk into that environment, and you don’t really understand how it is, you know, at the coalface, as it were, so when you were a senior leader in that role, did you did you use your, your experience? You know, when you when you first started out in your career, did you find that helpful, you know, to to be the team leader?

Dana Williams 7:08
Absolutely. And I think more important is I learned, I trained right underneath our founder, and our co founders, was very close to Herb Kelleher and Colleen Barrett at that time. And they taught me so much about building culture, and growing people, and putting people first. And so I did spend a lot of time on culture as a leader. And being kind of that, as I came back the third time, it was being that historian of, here’s what the movement of this company is about. And you’re a part of making that difference. That was a big piece of what I talked about a lot around the company, as well as in my own team, especially during COVID. Being able to tell them, we’ll get through this, we’ve been through other things, we’ll get through this. And this is why we’re gonna get there and how we’re gonna get through it. And let me tell you some stories. So I became a storyteller of the founding of the company for those people that I served, and then people that I led.

Gary Crotaz 8:13
A lot of people as they, as they go through a corporate career, have to reinvent themselves when they become a manager for the first time, become a senior leader for the first time. And for you, you’ve gone away and come back into those roles. Maybe that helped maybe that hindered, but how did you, did you find yourself having to think explicitly about reinvention as you came in, as you came back each time into the new roles?

Dana Williams 8:39
Yeah, I think when I came in the second time, the company was really growing. And I was growing. And it was so exciting. And so fun. We had such a great group of co-workers. And it was just wonderful. When I came back the third time, you know, my daughter was already in college. Like I said, I was going through some personal things with my husband, I kind of was, became more of the advisor. And that’s what kind of catapulted me into coaching. I think because I enjoyed listening and sharing and coming alongside, I wasn’t a competitor, I’m not gonna go after being, you know, trying to be this, I’m here to serve and kind of took on that role. And that was, it was, it was fun for me. And then when coaching came about, it was really fun. Because I was able to find my place with coaching.

Gary Crotaz 9:28
Yeah, so you’re here to talk about this Unlock Moment. So tell us about what that was for you. What was what was the moment where you suddenly found this new clarity as to what was coming next?

Dana Williams 9:41
Yeah. So I was, I was in the process of opening one of our new markets. It was a beach. It was actually a beach town. It was small. It was something we typically did not open. But we were opening this market and it was a big secret. I worked on it for like six months. And it was it One of one of the most proud moments I had, because it was such an amazing partnership with a city that we’d ever done. And I looked at, back at that time and think that was a pivotal moment, because I was doing exactly what I love doing. I was leading I was coming up with marketing campaigns for the city was just we had so much fun developing the campaigns, working with the city, you know, all the things we did to make it happen. And there was this picture of me with the local authorities from the airport, as well as our Vice President, our real estate department. And we were, you know, announcing that we were serving the market, and I was smiling. But I looked back at that picture. And I was smiling, because I was doing something that was really exciting and fun. But yet there was something missing. And it wasn’t until a few weeks later that one of my girlfriends bought brought to our department, the assessment called StrengthsFinder. And I did that assessment. And I realised that there was value that I didn’t know that I had in myself. And I think because I was going through a tough personal time, at that moment with our marriage, our marriage is fine now, we got through all that. But it was a tough time, but I didn’t know who I was. And once I took the assessment and found out who I was, and then learned that I could start coaching with it, as well as leading and marketing. It was all of a sudden a clarity of like, who I was and what I was supposed to do. It was like my calling, all of a sudden, I was transforming my life. Focus, I got more clarity, I think when you get focus about what you’re made of, you get more clarity. And everything kind of clears up about what you’re supposed to spend your time on. And that’s what kind of happened with me.

And bring to life for our listeners that are not necessarily experts in in strengths. What was it that you saw in that, in that tool, in that assessment, in that report that that was new for you?

I think I’ve I mean, I was so blessed to have amazing leaders at Southwest Airlines that of course, our founder, they were always positive and encouraging and grubby, but I never really knew clearly what I was made of. And it was when I found out that I had ideation and strategic and individualization. I like to customise I like to come up with ideas. But this whole strategic thing, I didn’t realise I had that. And so it’s, I think it was a good way to diffuse self-confidence, or to boost my self-confidence, and my productivity and my energy, because then I realised I need to practice these everyday, and I need to use them everyday, because that’s what I’ve been made to do. And that’s the clarity it brought. And at that time, we were going through a reorg. And I was helping our Vice President with that. And I realised I really wanted to do something and more of a strategic, I’ve always done more of the creative side, I wanted to do something more on the strategic planning side. And, and I knew that I had the gifts to do that. And so that was kind of fun to, to shift. And to use those talents to do that.

Gary Crotaz 13:18
What was the moment when you knew that you’d need to do something different? Was it on reading the report? Was it talking to somebody about it?

Dana Williams 13:27
No, it took probably once I got the report, it wasn’t until a coach went through the report with me. And this is one thing I say everybody needs a coach, right? Because you can look at the report and go okay, and then just stick it in your your drawer, you know, and never look at it again. And that’s kind of what happened to me the very first time I took out that well, this is great. But it was about a year later, or six months later, when we were doing the reorg that I pulled it out again. And then we got actually coaching from a coach on it. And she really helped bring out what was in the report and helped me see where my sweet spots were, and helped me see where my basement and blind spots were. And we all have both right. And, but I think we’ve grown up with people saying well, you’re really good at this, but you need to work on this. And I was always kind of, I’m pretty much a cup half full person, but I was probably putting myself down too much about what I didn’t have. And once I learned what I did have, and I learned that I need to be there and spend my time there, then it just energises me more. So it was probably about that moment in time. And then I started when I started applying it every day.

Gary Crotaz 14:39
How old were you at that time?

Unknown Speaker 14:42
Gosh, I was probably late 40s. Yeah, probably late 40s. And so it was like why didn’t I know this earlier?

Gary Crotaz 14:52
And I think that that’s that’s that’s that’s something that a lot of people who who worked with coaches or use, you know different tools, if they find that that there’s a sense of, you know, whether you’re in your 20s, your 30s, your 40s, your 70s, there’s always something new to discover about yourself. And, you know, there’s, it’s never too late to find out what your identity is, and what you want to do with it. And I find it fascinating always working with people who, you know, are beyond the point in their life, maybe in their teenage years, or their early 20s, where they’re sort of figuring out life for the first time. And there’s, and they’re discovering, there’s so much more to figure out. So what did it feel like to be at that stage in your life in that stage in your career, and to feel that you were really discovering new insight about yourself?

Dana Williams 15:43
I think that clarity came, and the confidence came, and then people started talking to me about how I’d help them or, Wow, you really, and they started associating me, you know, not only as a marketing marketer or leader, but as a trusted confidant coach. I was like, there’s something going on here. What is this, you know, and so, right about that time, our leader, we told him, we’d like to get, we asked if we could get certified. And he said, Absolutely. And so that was just the game changer. So once I went through the certification course, and learned more about Clifton Strengths and learned more about myself, I think I started this journey. And so that’s been, it’s been a really exciting journey to be on. And it’s never dull, because I think studying ourselves change, we change constantly, right? So being … that gave me the energy to keep working on it, and in seeing what was working, what wasn’t working. But that was the magic moment.

Gary Crotaz 16:46
When you talk about confidence, would you have described yourself before that time as not confident, or…?

Dana Williams 16:54
it’s funny, because this is the thing we’re talking about this month in my company about courage and confidence. And I think, I think I had a risk-taking part of me that always just gets out there and does stuff. But I think there was always a fear of Oh, what if I don’t do it? Right? Maximizer. What if it’s not perfect? And what this taught me is, it’s okay, it’s going to be authentically you. And don’t try to be, compare yourself. And I think I grew up always, you know, having other role models to look up to or other people that were either within my company or other corporate female leaders. And I would say, well, I should be like that. And what this helped me say is, No I need to be my authentic self. And then that gave me the confidence to say, I don’t need to spend my time on what other people … it’s good to learn from other people. But I need to spend more time managing myself – and I think that was the aha moment, it was actually a amazing counsellor that my husband I were visiting. And we love this guy, we see him whenever we need to see him, we always talk about, uh, you need to have a counsellor, on, on, on call when you need one. And he talked about it as the hula hoop moment. And it’s just putting the hula hoop around yourself, and working on managing yourself and not trying to change anybody else. And I think that was the clarity that I got was I need to work on me. And the more I work on me, the better everything else is going to be – that I can’t change anything outside of that hula hoop. And so that is where the power came in, I think.

Gary Crotaz 18:31
And I hope people listening to this conversation can really tune into that thing that you just said, which was so powerful about, you know, having gone through life, and we all do, seeing other people that are inspirational and think I need to be like them. And there’s this aha moment when you suddenly realise No, I need to be me, at my best, in an authentic way. And then you start working on yourself as a direct result of that. It’s it’s a, it feels in some ways, subtle, but in some ways revelatory in that mindset shift.

Dana Williams 19:04
And knowing that we’re a work in progress, we’re never going to be just perfect. But there’s things that we can work on every day on ourselves to make ourselves be the best we can be. And I learned how to transfer that energy from being frustrated, or expectations of others, is to really focus on myself. So I brought that into the workplace with me and talk to my leader, quote, co-leaders as well as people direct reports when they were frustrated about how somebody was behaving or something didn’t happen the way it should happen. It was somebody’s fault. I was like, let’s just put the hula hoop around you, just focus on you. What can you do inside yourself to manage this? And so it became my little thing that you know, I have the hula hoop thing. Go on that. Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 19:51
So what happened next, what changed as a result of that realisation?

Dana Williams 19:55
So then, as I went on this journey with Gallup with … I was working with Gallup, and working with Southwest. And again, I had this fabulous leader and we started getting calls from other departments within the company saying, Hey, we hear y’all are using strengths. We want to do that. How did y’all do it? Can you help us? So I just said to him, Can I help? If somebody reaches out, another leader reaches out? Can I help with this, and he goes, absolutely, you know, spend 10% of your time on it and spend the rest, you know of your time on on marketing. So I started doing that. And then Gallup, we, every time that our HR University for people, were working towards a Gallup initiative, they called me in the room, and then I became the expert. Because we had done it the long … we were the first ones to do it, and we had done it longer than anybody else. And so then I found myself having to develop a strengths-based kind of like a roadmap for us to become a strengths-based company. But it took from the time I got, I’d had my first assessment until that happened. That was about seven years, eight years, until our leaders, our CEO said I want to be a strengths-based company. And that’s when everything changed, then everything started hitting. And it was about that moment that I started realising I’d work with our teams within marketing and lead facilitations. And then I’d go and help other groups, I was on a bunch of cross functional teams, whether it be to manage the Max, which was a certain type of aircraft, or to manage opening Hawaii, they were all cross functional. So always made sure everybody had their strengths, and would do the team grid with them. And one of the things I learned is that they all wanted to do it now, kept calling. And that’s how it kind of moved. So it was a grassroots moment when it moved. But I realised after I’d worked with them on their strengths, I said, How do I know they’re going to keep doing this? It’s probably like with your book, The IDEA Mindset, how do you know they’re gonna keep doing it when they got a actual book they can hold and they can talk through. So that’s why I created the Strengths Journal. And I, I knew I was going to be going out on my own, but I had no idea when. And I was just, I said, I’m just going to start working on this. So about almost three years ago, I went to Gallup and said, Can I create a strength space journal? Will you licence me to do that? And they said, Yes. And I told my leader about it, I told the people I work with I said I’m creating this journal, I don’t know where this is going. So fast forward to 2020 COVID hits, and I’m thinking I was gonna tell my leader in 2020, that I was probably going to leave in that year, but I didn’t know when well, then when COVID hit and all the challenges and they needed people to take early retirement early packages, I thought, well, here’s my opportunity. So I was ready. And I think that’s what I tell people, when they’re thinking about starting their own business or leaving corporate, there’s a lot of things you need to do to kind of be ready. And part of it was I had been doing it for three years, I had been getting calls from people outside of Southwest to go help coach, at my church or people that were formerly Southwest Airlines leaders that had left and gone to other companies and hire me to come in and do their facilitation. So I got to practise what I was going to be doing when it was time to leave. So when the opportunity came, I was like this is it. It’s here on a platter, I’m going to I’m going to leave and I’m going to start my business and I’ve got money to start it with now. So it was it was just a godsend. It was blessing. My boss was so surprised. I was like, Why are you surprised? Like, this is what I’ve been that I’ve been thinking about it for so long. That by the time the opportunity came, I was I was so ready. And I had been preparing myself

Gary Crotaz 23:45
is interesting. So you describe something along the way, three years before you leave. When I when I talked about that moment with my coaching clients, I talk about a ‘post-it note moment’, which comes from in my own past, there was a moment in particular role where I decided that I was leaving, but not … I didn’t know when and I didn’t know where to but I decided that I was leaving. And I wrote it on a post-it note to a colleague, and I just put I’m leaving and put on the post it note and put it on their desk and they went when when are you going? And I said I don’t know. But there’s something in that moment of deciding that at some point the path is somewhere else. And that’s that’s what you’re talking about three years before you left.

Dana Williams 24:29
Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Crotaz 24:31
What was the trigger? Then when when, at that moment when you said I don’t know when? And I don’t know quite how yet. And in reality, it’s going to be three years down the line. But what’s the trigger when you went? I know that this is my future beyond the role that I’m in today.

Dana Williams 24:49
I think it’s when I started getting calls from people that I had coached within Southwest or led and they had gone to other companies. They said can you come help us? I thought Well, there’s an opportunity here, and and then when I had developed the I was like, why hasn’t anybody developed a daily planner around strengths to help them daily with this because I feel like everything you do daily contributes to where you’re going, if you don’t do the daily work, you’re not going to get where you want to go. And that was my case. So I’ve really built it for me originally, because I thought, if I’m going to make a change, and I’m going to go on my, on my own, I’ve got to start working towards that now. And like you, I didn’t know what that magic moment time was going to be. But I had it, it was just like a calling, an internal calling that I had to fulfil that hadn’t been fulfilled yet.

Gary Crotaz 25:40
And I really liked that the, the idea that this is very instinctual, really that, that you didn’t sit there one day and say, you know, I want to make loads of money from a book, which book am I going to write, you know, I want to make, you know, be successful in my own business, what business is that going to be? You were doing things because they were right for you. And they were interesting. And you know, you followed your nose to opportunities. I think that’s, that’s, that’s what you’re describing? Really?

Dana Williams 26:08
Yes. And I think the other thing that happened was, I remember telling one of my co-workers I was really close to and she was the Vice President, another department, because we were both kind of planning out. Okay, when do we think this is going to be when we’re going to leave, this was before COVID. And I said, I feel like I need to tell my leader in in February that I’m probably or in March that I’m probably going to leave in the end of the year. Well, who knew Who knew that in March, we were going to have COVID. And then who knew that all of a sudden, my plan[]=q1, I couldn’t tell him because I needed all hands on deck for COVID, I had to get into that. And I thought I can’t leave now. This is this is a very important time in the history of the company, I’ve got to help do what I can do to keep things going. And so the timing was was again, I hadn’t put a date on it other than maybe by the end of the year. So it when this all happened and the opportunity, we found out in July that they were going to offer packages for people, cash packages for people to take early retirement, I was like, Okay, well, I’ll just do that. And I didn’t even have to think twice about it. Where some of my co-workers took it and it was a very hard decision, very hard. And some of them have gone back. And some of them have, you know, have stayed on the you know, started their own businesses. So I think you just know it, that the timing, things can come up, and you just have to go with what’s going on and say, Okay, this is the door is not quite open right now to have this conversation. So…

Gary Crotaz 27:43
And you’re describing the journey, you’ve been on, you know, through through many years, you know, to and fro in and out of Southwest, and through these different times. The people that have known you for a long time, have they observed you changing over that time, do you think, in who you are,

Dana Williams 28:02
You know, I my husband probably would, because he’s been with me through it all. And it’s funny, because the very first time I left, I actually before I started in marketing in Nashville, I just worked for myself also doing some training. And I thought … and that came from the human, the HR area. And so at that time, it was like, Okay, this is something when I look back, I always have people do life maps where they draw their map of their life from birth to to here now and look at the moments and where did they see that pattern. And that’s the pattern that started emerging for me is, oh, I’ve kind of left and started my own business a couple of times. And what I’ve learned from that is that I needed to use that time at Southwest to grow and learn, I wasn’t quite ready yet. If I hadn’t had all that experience in marketing, this would have been really hard to do to launch a business and launch a journal and, but I was able to, I call it my lab, I was able to learn while I was at work, doing my normal day job, I was able to learn a lot and get myself focused. But I didn’t have focus till after that moment of getting the strengths.

Gary Crotaz 29:15
And bring to life for the listeners. What is the Strengths Journal and and…

Dana Williams 29:21
So let me grab mine right here. Oh, here it is. So the Strengths Journal is a daily journal that I created, where you … actually before you even start filling it, filling it out daily, you you really kind of have to identify your 10 talents by taking the assessment and then really write in your mission, your core values and your goals. And it’s all about what your mission is. And in really being able to find that I love how you’re naming this podcast unlocking it is really unlocking that unique talent in yourself and then applying it every day. So every day is intentional. So like this morning, you know, what is my desired, you know, intention for today, what is the outcome for today, and why? And I have to tell myself that every morning, and then I have three big action items for the day. And I apply my Clifton Strengths to those. So that helps boost me to get each of those things done. And then I kind of talk about what you’re grateful for have fill in a spot for what you’re grateful for. And then what did you learn or what fear did you conquer, and this goes back to that confidence thing, because I learned, we’re not growing unless we’re stepping in fear. And especially as an entrepreneur, I’m stepping in fear all the time of, Oh, I’m gonna try this now. And we’ll just get out there and learn and and then within the journal every week, is a quickly weekly review, where you’re reviewing what you did the week before, and where you’re going the next week. And then also reviewing your wellbeing, which is so important right now coming out of pandemic, the mental your mental health and managing the five areas of wellbeing that that we know from Gallup, which are around community, physical, community, physical, financial, and learn your actual work, what you’re doing at work your career wellbeing, and then how you’re feeling within your, I call it faith, it could be people call it different things, but in the community, so I, you kind of have to write those every day. And how you’re how you’re managing your social, that’s so important. We need six hours of social every day, whether it’s this, like on a podcast where I’m talking to you. But I think during the COVID people got in a habit of just being by themselves, you know, Netflix, and so I have them write themselves every week on how they’re doing with the wellbeing. So it’s been fun. I launched a bootcamp a couple about four weeks ago, and we have people working on their mission statements right now. And it’s been fun. I think my passion is really helping people birth their purpose and live it every day. And I think that’s what happened to me. Once I found that purpose. Then I was so energised. And I felt clear about where I was spending my time and where I was going.

Gary Crotaz 32:14
And do you think that purpose crosses your corporate career and what you’re doing now? Or do you think you discovered it at this point of transition?

Dana Williams 32:22
So I have high Belief in my strengths. And I think those are, you know, core values are unwavering. So I felt like I worked for a company that was mission based. And it was about giving people the ability to go where they want to go at a low price with great customer service. And I think that building my business right now is purposeful as well, which is helping people birth their purpose and live it out every day. So I think I learned from that about, and I think I’m attracted to that. I’m attracted to something that’s purposeful.

Gary Crotaz 33:00
And having gone on this whole journey, what have you learned about yourself do you think?

Dana Williams 33:05
Wow, I think I see I’m learning to see myself, like a plant in a garden. And that I have to get myself around the right environment to grow. And it’s in, it’s that proximity. It’s putting myself in proximity with people that are ahead of me, that can help me as well as people that encouraged me. As well as me working on myself and spending so much energy working on myself that I’m not, I don’t have the energy to be, I guess, frustrated that things aren’t a certain way they should be because I’m constantly thinking about working on myself. And just really, how am I getting watered? How am I getting fed? How can I then feed others? And you know, I’ll take an airline metaphor, but the oxygen mask, you know, I’m just let’s put the oxygen mask on myself first that I can serve all those people that I want to serve. And I think that’s purposeful too in

Gary Crotaz 34:06
People’s really important for you?

Dana Williams 34:07
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I was raised in that human human environment. It’s pretty, it’s pretty powerful.

Gary Crotaz 34:17
And what advice would you give to other people who maybe today are in a similar situation to where you were a few years ago?

Dana Williams 34:26
I would say not to give up at all on themselves. And to make sure that and this is something that it’s kind of like it’s crossing over my personal life and my my work life, but I realised we were in some friendships with people that weren’t the best for us. So learning to clear away those toxic environments that aren’t good for you to grow in at this the garden, you know, again, the garden metaphor, but how to get yourself in a place where you can grow and learn constantly. But focus on what you’re made to do and do more of that. And, you know, I think everybody needs a coach, which I’m so excited about the work you’re doing, Gary, and how you’re helping people with your book, and how you’re changing lives through that. And I think we can’t do it alone. And I think at a point in my life, I thought, oh, I can do this, and I don’t need, I can just do it. And I learned that, that I need people around me and people that I can lean on. So my best advice is to get your own advisory board. And this is what I recommend all the time to new entrepreneurs, it’s people that are ahead of you, that are experts in areas that you’re not an expert in, and ask them to be on your virtual advisory board and ask if it’s okay, if you call upon them, you know, once a quarter for advice, you don’t pay them. But they’re honoured that you ask them, and they’re people you trust. And I think that is my best advice. That’s the thing that’s kept me going in these early days of starting my business.

Gary Crotaz 36:02
And again, I’d like the people listening to tune into the fact that what you’re describing here is absolutely real for you. It’s authentic for you. This is not you spinning a story, because you think it’s the right thing to say, it’s this is the journey you’ve been on and the life you lived. And I think that’s what makes it so powerful. The things that you say and the advice you bring. And I thank you for that. We are early in 2022, we are hopefully coming to the end of the worst phases of the global pandemic, although there’s obviously other global instability going on right now, which is, which is causing everybody to question things that they thought were stable, and maybe are less stable than they imagined. But when you look ahead to the year of 2022, and you know what’s to come, what are the things that that you’re focusing on for this year? And what are your what are your goals and objectives that you’d like to be achieving?

Dana Williams 37:02
That’s a great question I like to use in this … kind of one of the things I’ve done in the past, and it really helps me get focused, but just focus on one word for the year. So this year, my word is Abundance. And so if I’m thinking a word, if I’m thinking abundance, I’m not thinking about what can’t be done. I’m thinking about what is going to be done and thinking into that every day. And it’s putting myself in the garden of hope of like, oh, okay, that didn’t work. But here’s where we want to go. And so I really, this is year two of my business. And I always say here we go that I don’t know why I bring up garden all the time. I’m not that good of a gardener. But usually it takes three years for a garden to set. Right. So I always tell people when you’re doing something new wait till the third year, and then all of a sudden you start to see things start to bloom and go and set. And so I’m giving this is kind of my transitional year this year, of, we did a lot of testing and learning last year of things. And this year, just like we’ve been talking about with whether it’s Clubhouse or LinkedIn Live, or some of the tools we’re using, what’s working, what’s not working, what stuck, what do we need to change. But my focus is to get I have an evergreen class that I want to get launched at the end of the year, and I’m doing these bootcamps in preparation for that. And then I work, I want to work with other corporate clients. So I have a half a dozen that I’m working with right now. And I just love it, being able to help them come in. And as they’re going through these changes. I feel like I’m right back in the marketing department at Southwest helping the leaders where we were in what we were going through. So that’s been exciting to see that too. I’m attracting right now. And so I just want to continue building those two areas of my business and and mentoring along the way. We have also been giving a donation to Nomi Network, which is a international network for women that have been sex trafficked, and helping them get back into the workforce. And I’m passionate about helping them with that and helping these women get back in the workforce. So I’m always wanting to get back a little and that’s the area this year that we have chosen to get back in.

Gary Crotaz 39:21
That’s amazing. And where can people find out more about you?

Dana Williams 39:25
So just come to DanaWilliamsCo.com is the easiest place or they can find me on LinkedIn or Instagram at DanaWilliamsCo. And I think those are the two easiest places to find me right now. Or three easiest places to find me right now.

Gary Crotaz 39:40
Dana, thank you so much for for coming on the podcast and telling your story. It’s been really it’s been really lovely.

Dana Williams 39:48
Thank you, Gary.

Gary Crotaz 39:51
The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. What Dana articulates so clearly is how a focus on who you are when you’re at your absolute best every day is a route to a deeply fulfilling life. From senior and influential roles in the airlines industry with Southwest Airlines, she stepped away to follow her personal passion to help people through coaching and the Strengths Journal. Through her dominate your day podcast and the sessions she hosts on Clubhouse and LinkedIn Live, her commitment to reaching out with her message to more people is ever-present. Dana, thank you so much for sharing your story on The Unlock Moment, and I’m sure you’ve inspired my listeners to go explore their strengths as they figure out their path ahead. This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly, where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking, when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you will be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m delighted to have a dear friend joining me Samuel Haughton. A hugely talented actor and performer, he was one of the first people ever to work with me on the IDEA Mindset journey. And since then, his career has really gone from strength to strength. As a result, he’s dialling in today from Aberdeen in northeast Scotland, where he’s on tour with a big show. I’ve invited Samuel on the podcast today to hear about how he navigated a fork in the road in his career journey. I want to learn more about what it felt like, how he found his sense of direction and what happened next. Samuel has been working in the entertainment industry for nearly 10 years since graduating from the Guildford School of Acting, his acting career has taken him around the world, spanning almost every entertainment medium. In more recent years, his experience has expanded into talent management, allowing him to know the industry from many different angles. Currently, Samuel is enjoying rocking around the UK and Ireland in the first touring production of School of Rock. Sam, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me.

Samuel Haughton 2:01
Thank you for having me. How exciting.

Gary Crotaz 2:04
Where were you in your in your career when we first started talking about this career journey you started getting involved in in IDEA. Tell me about where you were in your career journey. At that point,

Samuel Haughton 2:15
I took far longer than it was ever intended to get through the entire IDEA Mindset programme with Gary for various reasons. But we got there, I had just finished Panto, I believe. And I, it was just before I found out I was going to Korea with the Korean tour of School of Rock – we’ll get onto that later. And it’s interesting you kind of spoke about about forks in the road in the introduction and I kind of what what came to mind is that I wasn’t making any set decisions, I was kind of allowing life to happen to me feeling like I had no control over the direction in which I was going and kind of just quite blindly following whichever fork in the road I felt like at that point, instead of looking at directions and being very clear on why I was taking a certain route and seeing where that would lead me. Yeah, desperate, desperate to find some sense of direction. And desperate to kind of feel like I was taking some kind of ownership over my life and and where it was heading.

Gary Crotaz 3:28
And what were some of the kinds of things that you were doing at that time. So you had you had the acting going on? I think you were doing talent management at that time. What other things were you doing at that time?

Samuel Haughton 3:38
I was doing some temping, I believe it was there’s always there’s always a January dip where normally you finish as an actor, you finish your Christmas contract, it’s normally a panto. And you know, the industry is still waking up from a Prosecco-induced coma. So there’s a lot, you know, there’s a lot of time before things get going again, and I was also starting to pursue TV presenting. I was getting my showreel for that done. I was just kind of dipping into my bit jobs. I was doing a bit of piano teaching. I was just, it was all kind of quite scattered and quite unfocused. But it was it was kind of falling into that, Oh, got to do what I need to get by kind of situation. And that’s, that’s, that’s where we were at. Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 4:29
What does? What does the life of an actor look like in terms of sort of future uncertainty? So I assume it’s quite difficult to predict what’s going to happen over the coming months over the coming years. What does that feel like?

Samuel Haughton 4:42
It’s not my favourite part of my job. What I’ve learned, and actually, I’ll steal this from my personal trainer, Mr. Joshua Dacosta. He talks about if you think of a chair, the more legs around the chair, the more stable the cherries. And the more legs you have to spare for want of, for want of a better phrase, you know, so like one of one of the legs can go, and the chair will still stand. And so what I’ve learned with acting is that the more kind of other things I have on the go at the same point, the less I feel like I’m about to topple when an acting job finishes, as it inevitably does. And so, definitely skip back a couple of years, I was very uncertain, I had maybe one, maybe two legs on my chair. And the second an acting job was finished, it was kind of back to the foundations, back to ground level trying to figure out okay, what do I build now? How do I how do I build my life with this huge gap, because this is the other thing, when you’re on an acting project, it takes up your entire life. So when it goes, you almost need to mourn it a little bit, it’s gone. It was great. And then you need to figure out what you’re doing next. But now I’m in a position where I feel a lot more confident that when, for example, the tour I’m on currently finishes, I kind of have a loose idea of what’s going to come next, not necessarily in terms of acting projects, and always the way I will line up my life, I will line up work, and then an acting project will come in from left field. But what’s great is, you know, the, the the other the other projects I have on the go, the other things I have going are very flexible. They are workable around my life as an actor. And I’m very grateful for them.

Gary Crotaz 6:38
It’s so interesting hearing the way that you describe those things. So, so in in a time of uncertainty and the nature of of what you do has inherent uncertainty in it. There was a time where your response to that uncertainty to find stability, was to put more legs on the chair, which at the time was manifesting if I understand as a lot of different things, you know, temping, piano teaching, acting, different things. And so if we come to, to this Unlock Moment, leading into that time, if you were to be able to articulate really the choice ahead of you the path to the left, the path to the right, how would you describe those, those those options that you had and you were working through to choose between?

Samuel Haughton 7:24
In the work that we did together, the Unlock Moment came, probably at least halfway if not to the latter part of our time. And it changed everything from that point onwards. Up until that point, we’d looked at what I was craving, which was a bit more certainty, which was feeling like I knew the direction I was going in. And I think there were two things there was there was the fork in the road of do I carry on pursuing my acting career? Or do I focus more on my talent management, which is a little more of a solid lifestyle, there’s always going to be talent, they’re always going to need managing. And do I look to expand that? And then when we looked at acting by itself, it was why am I doing it? Am I doing it because it makes me happy? Or am I doing it because I want to be the best at it? And for me, I think that that was the bigger Unlock Moment for me. Because I then applied that principle to my entire life about why why do I do what I do? Whatever I’m doing that day, am I doing this because it makes me happy? Or am I doing it because I feel like I should? This is what we landed on, we landed on that I was I was articulating the goal of wanting to be the best at something, because that is what society tells you should always be striving for. And sometimes that comes at the cost of happiness. Whereas actually what I was striving for was a lifestyle that would make me happy and would be sustainable, and would continue to make me happy in future years.

Gary Crotaz 9:12
It’s really interesting. So so that the question was, why do you do what you do? That that that that was what that was what you’re working through? Why? Why is it you act? And, and this will sound like an obvious question, but tell me more about why that was an important thing for you to resolve.

Samuel Haughton 9:31
I think for me when I understood the why, it put into sharper focus where I was heading, not that I can necessarily answer that for you. But I have a stronger idea of what that looks like. And it also became the fuel that would get me to that destination. So it affected my journey from every single angle. And like I say, I don’t just apply that principle to acting, I apply that to life. Is this situation I’m in, making me happy? If not, what needs to change? Do I need to change, does the situation need to change? Is it a case of I just need to sit in this for a bit, and then the end result will be happy? You know, it’s, it’s really, it’s expanded my view of situations and enabled me to feel like I’m in control of them.

Gary Crotaz 10:28
We’ll come in a second to that actual moment of realisation. But tell, tell me a little bit more about what what did it feel like to be you in leading up to that time when, you know, we’ve been working together for some time, and you’ve been working through a process of change, but as you articulate, you hadn’t quite landed on this point yet. What emotions were you experiencing at that time? What did it feel like to be you at that time before you made that breakthrough moment?

Samuel Haughton 10:59
In the long term before, I was just quite, I was just quite lackadaisical about life, I just kind of, it used to be this thing that would just happen to me instead of me living life. And just sometimes I’ve been that could be quite anxiety inducing when I felt like I had absolutely no idea of what I was doing or any control over what I was doing. Particularly when you then see your peers achieving things and you think, why am I not doing that? Should I be doing that? That was always quite triggering for me. In the immediate before my Unlock Moment, we’d been working together for a few months. And I was absolutely livid with you. I was going, Why do I have to make this decision? I think I can do both whaa da da daa, like I was I was I was, that was a tough wrestling match. To kind of wrestle through that question and get to an answer. And we still, I think, I think if memory serves, we landed on this question. And then I went away, and I kind of sat with it, we then proceeded to have at least two or three sessions, where we’d come back each time, and I hadn’t got any further with it. And we’d kind of hash it out for an hour. And, again, this is whilst I was in Korea. And because of time differences, I remember I would come back from a show and we’d be doing it at something like 11pm my time, I’d be tired. And I was like, but actually, you know, hindsight, being a lovely thing, that that was just a manifestation of years and years of uncertainty and anxiety, kind of building up and all of a sudden, I was confronted with this decision that I knew I had to make, because you weren’t going to let me not.

Gary Crotaz 12:47
And who are you wrestling with?

Samuel Haughton 12:48
Myself, ah, just myself, no, myself. And if I say society, that makes me sound like, I think I’m a revolutionary. But I think I think it’s important to acknowledge your journey through life, and expectations that have been placed on you, from those around you, as you’ve journeyed through, if that makes sense.

Gary Crotaz 13:13
After all of that struggle, through, you know, over time, through sessions, we had together through the thinking that you were doing, what was the moment where you found that breakthrough point of clarity.

Samuel Haughton 13:25
What triggered the Unlock Moment, the only thing I can put it down to is that I had sat with it long enough. And I woke up. I think it was it was very early. I can’t remember what time you received the WhatsApp message, but I was

Gary Crotaz 13:45
I’m thinking it was about four o’clock in the morning. For me.

Samuel Haughton 13:48
That sounds about right. Yeah, I think I was. So whatever that time difference is. But I remember it was early. I remember like I was I woke up, I sent you that message from my bed and was like, I think this is it. What do you think? I think you just messaged back something like, ‘Yes’. And that was it. And we you know, and we we spoke as you know, I think I think I think my I think my answer was a bit longer. I think it was the understanding that because you because I was choosing to focus on my happiness didn’t mean I would never be the best in the world at what I did. But it was choosing where I was going to put my efforts and what would ultimately define the choices I will make in the future. And that’s where I am and that’s, that’s that’s where I’ve been led to. And that’s how I’m living.

Gary Crotaz 14:37
And it’s funny when I remember texting you back and saying yes, which is never something I would normally do. I never say my opinion is is that the right answer for you. Because it’s not for me to know. But I think I remember saying to you afterwards, the yes was more. The fact that I received this text at four o’clock in the morning means it’s probably quite important to you and therefore, to give you some reassurance, this probably indicates that you’re coming to quite a profound realisation at this point in time. So it was, it was really a moment, I remember to this day, the moment of receiving that text message, because we had been working through it for a long period of time going to and fro as you describe. And I think that it’s one of the really formative experiences in my own coaching experience that takes me to this idea of this Unlock Moment, the idea that there is a point in time in this, you know, undulating journey that that people go through to figure things out, where suddenly there’s a blinding flash of this is it, this is it. So, so that where you came to was, it’s about happiness. And that sounds simple. Sounds simple, but but it really isn’t. So, what changed for you, once you came to that realisation, that that’s why you did what you did?

Samuel Haughton 15:08
It just took pressures off. And I think this is true of any job, you, you know, we have, we have goals, we have aims, and I used to put ages on them. Now, now, the goals are still there, there’s still there’s still direction that I would like to move in. Because I think that will make me happy. But I’m so much more open to experiences that come along along the way, that made me happy in a different way, or might make me even happier than this other thing that I thought would make me happy. I feel quite liberated, I feel liberated from my own expectations on myself. And just feel like I can run headfirst into situations and, and just be open to everything it’s going to give me. It’s quite it’s, it’s a far more exciting way for me to live. That’s not to say I’m reckless. That’s not to say I go completely rogue, there’s like I say, there’s still a direction that I want to move in. But I feel like I have expanded my horizons. And there’s so much more out there for me to experience and that excites me. And that makes me happy.

Gary Crotaz 17:22
Does it? Does it change your perception of of worry or regret? If you think that how how, how it felt to be you before and how it felt to be you after?

Samuel Haughton 17:35
Yeah, definitely. I’m going to separate those two – worry, in terms of worry, it’s, I can I can only, I can only make the choices with what’s on the table for me, I can’t I can’t worry about what’s on other people’s tables. I’m not sitting at that table – like I am sitting at my table. What is on the table for me? We have choices. Okay, what’s going to make me happy? Great. And then I don’t know what the other thing what, you know, I made that decision based on what I had in that moment. And I think actually regret goes hand in hand with that. I can’t I can’t regret the choice I didn’t make because that moment it’s that cliche of you know, don’t have any regrets. Because at one point when you made that decision, what you chose was exactly what you wanted. And that’s Yeah, that’s very liberating.

Gary Crotaz 18:25
Very powerful statement, isn’t it to say what I did, rightly or wrongly was was for the reason I’m clear on the reasons why I made that decision. How do you think other people perceive the changing you from before to after?

Samuel Haughton 18:42
Oh, I’ve never asked. I think … dear listener, I work very closely with Gary’s wife. In terms of the talent management work that I do. And Mildred was the one I don’t think I’m misquoting her in saying this, I’m pretty sure it has happened, or it was a dream. And that’s really weird. But she, I think it was a few months after, we’d finished working together. And we were chatting as we do. And she said something along the lines of You just seem a lot more settled. And I was like I really am. And I’m happier. And I know a bit more about what I’m doing and why I’m doing it and therefore how much of myself I’m willing to give to this, you know, it influenced the way I approach a lot of things and actually, it led to particularly over lockdown me and Mildred doing a lot of work on how we worked and are we both getting what we need from this and you know what, what needs to change and so it kind of it has facilitated me to approach relationships and situations and you know, all areas of my life from a different angle and and kind of renegotiate the boundaries of those a little bit in a way that works better for me. So in that instance, I don’t I don’t know if people have necessarily seen like a complete – Sam’s a completely different person – because that was never the aim, that was never the intention, what I hope they see is is, you know, for want of a better phrase, Sam 2.0, like an improved Sam, a happier Sam, a Sam who is actually able to work better in every situation, because he’s functioning it in a healthier way.

Gary Crotaz 20:31
I really like Sam 2.0, I think that that’s amazing. And then bring bring that to life for for us, practically. So, so what what’s changed practically in your life since since then, if you compare where you were, and you know, physically, mentally, spiritually, work-wise, what, how’s that actually manifested in, in tangible change in your life, do you think?

Samuel Haughton 20:57
So there’s a couple of things to go on there. I think a big one would be I started working with my personal trainer, I think just a bit before we started working together. But I’ve really, again, run kind of headfirst as much as I can into that. It’s cyclical, depending on you know, when we were in rehearsals, I didn’t really have a lot of spare time. I love working with my trainer, in particular, because he gets it. And again, we are very clear on my goal. And my goal is to be happy sometimes being happy will be me allowing myself to go out and eat a lot and drink a lot with my friends. Other times it will be okay, let’s get me really physically healthy. So I know I can do this job. So I know I can run this marathon because I’m an idiot, and I’ve signed up to one, you know all those things. And, and so we’re very much aligned with those goals. So physically, I feel great. And I think that’s had a great impact on my mental health as well. I take a lot more time to make sure mentally I’m getting what I need. And on tour, that’s really hard. But I always try and make room for that. At the time of recording, I’m in a lovely relationship. We’ve been together for a year, that was very much not the intention, when I finished working with you. I was I think I was actively like, I want to put all my energies into making me happy. I don’t want to negotiate that with anyone else. And then I met the lovely man in my life and was like, you make me happy. And actually, I don’t feel like I am giving of myself – I think I think if anything I’m gaining, and I think, I very much hope he feels the same way. Otherwise, it’s a very one sided relationship! But yeah, it’s very much changed every aspect of my life, not just my job.

Gary Crotaz 22:57
And that’s something that’s very striking for me that, that, you know, we never worked on or intended to work on the practical changes in your life in that way. But, you know, when we were first working together, you were doing couch to 5k, you know, and now you signed up like an idiot for a marathon. You know, it’s it’s striking changes that have happened to you, you hadn’t been in the cast of a UK tour of a big West End musical before and now you are, now what’s interesting for me reflecting is that when before you hadn’t got to your Unlock Moment, and you were talking about your aspirations around achievement and success. There’s many of the things that you’re experiencing now that absolutely fit there. But what’s something that I noticed is that the freedom in your thinking that came from figuring out why you’re doing what you were doing, and what it was really about actually have has supported or unlocked the ability to do many of those things that previously you were trying to get to by by pushing and trying and striving. And now you know, my observation of you is that is that you’ve relaxed into things that of course brings out your best and unsurprisingly other people notice. So and it’s interesting because what often people think that the choice between two different paths or two different philosophies, is to let something go. But actually, in your case, I’m not sure you have let anything go that you wanted. So what have you learned about yourself from going through this journey from going through this journey, for having these experiences?

Samuel Haughton 24:47
I’ve learned I’m even more stubborn than I ever realised. But but actually in that to again to kind of run into it and to you know, we kind of we said we said early on in our work together, this isn’t about changing anything about you, if it’s about, it’s just about, it’s even improving, I don’t know I think is just unlock, like unlocking other ways of thinking, if you then choose to make changes based on that, then that’s completely your decision. And I have and I will continue to and that’s great. But so I don’t, you know, I don’t think my stubbornness was was ever anything that needed to change it was just something it’s actually kind of served me very well in this situation, because it led me it led me to a terrific realisation. I think I’ve also learnt to, to embrace it, you know, this is along the same thing to embrace everything about myself, my resilience, my, the way I look, what I can do, what I enjoy doing. And I’ve really enjoyed kind of, through that falling in love with myself, that sounds that sounds really narcissistic, and I don’t mean it in that way. But really, really enjoying investing in myself and seeing the good that comes from that. And the good that I’m then able to put out, like, on a very basic level, if I’m, if I’m giving myself the time to go for a run every day, then I’m able to sign up for this marathon, which I’m running for Make A Wish Foundation, and that’s really cool. So I think it’s taught me to just enjoy myself and enjoy this life, because we only get one. So you might as well live it to the fullest.

Gary Crotaz 26:30
So if you were talking to somebody else who was in the place that you were in, not necessarily in, in the acting world, but in the sense of that stool, you know, with the with the instability, and they’re trying to do lots of different things. And they’re not quite clear on their why and they’re not quite clear on, on, on their focus and their priorities. And they’re feeling a sense of almost like, in my words being like a pinball in a pinball machine being done to as opposed to, to being on the front foot and driving the agenda. What advice would you give to them, given your experience, now?

Samuel Haughton 27:11
Sp find a Gary, no, although do, take a breath, take a big breath, and take a step back. Whether that’s in a formal setting, like you find a terrific business coach like Gary, you know, whether it’s in a formal setting like that, or whether, whether you just need to create space for yourself. And be really honest with yourself, it is the hardest thing. And like I say, sometimes you have to sit with questions for a very long time, before you’ll get to an answer.

Gary Crotaz 27:50
And how did that feel? Tell me, tell me about that. Tell me about that, that sense of needing to wait until you were there.

Samuel Haughton 27:59
Oh, infuriating. Like I was so annoyed, I think, again, talking about society’s expectation to be so everything is instant to us. And we’re conditioned to believe that things should come very quickly to you. And if they don’t, then they’re not worth it. Absolute rubbish, the most valuable things that come to you will take time. So sit in the uneasiness, sit in sit in the frustrations, sit in the anxiety, because what you get at the end of it will be better for you.

Gary Crotaz 28:34
And of course most people don’t don’t have the luxury of access to a coach you know and it can be an expensive thing to do as well. So, so for somebody who doesn’t have that access, what did you learn about, you know, you talked about talking to people around you, you know, what do you learn from what you could do yourself to get you to that place? And what advice might you give somebody that doesn’t necessarily have access to to people that can help them in such a focused way through that journey.

Samuel Haughton 29:06
I’d say look at the situations you’re in that aren’t what you want them to be – now for me that’s that aren’t making me happy, for other people be that they aren’t bringing them success or they aren’t making enough money or they’re having a negative impact on them or anything like that. Look at those situations that aren’t working for you, for whatever reason. Try and identify what it is about those situations. But also remember my knee jerk was to just be like, Fine, I’m going to give up this I’m going to give up that and you’re like, Whoa, stop, stop, stop, stop, stop. Look at this from every angle. I think at one point I was talking about stepping away from talent management and being extremely candid it’s responsible for a third of my income. That would be ridiculous. So okay, how do we navigate this to work better for you? And sometimes the changes will be in you. Sometimes the changes will need to be articulated to someone else. And they may not be able to make those changes for you. And in that case, you need to, you know, that takes a whole other load of evaluation. But just take that first step, and try and identify what’s not working. Why is it not working? How do we make this better? And as we said, sometimes the best thing to do is to bring it down to a simple level, don’t overcomplicate it, just start and kind of bit by bit, it should just start to fall into place.

Gary Crotaz 30:30
I really like that. And I think that hopefully listeners can hear through this conversation, that some of the questions that you find most insightful are very simple questions with a lot of silence actually, you know, being prepared to say, you know, so what is important for you? And then shut up. Like, it’s that you can ask yourself that question. And you kind of have to live with the fact that that can be uncomfortable. Sometimes, you have to say, so what is important? And if you can’t answer that question, just reflect on why you can’t answer that question. And then think over time, you know, how you can get to an answer. I mean, I, I think, I mean, it was, there was there was about a six month window, I think, in your journey, where there, there was a particular set of questions that you were living with. And so I often talk to other people that I work with and say, you know, when they are, as you’re describing, you know, two or three or four weeks into a particular dilemma, and I’m like, you’re, you’re still at least you’re still early days, because it may, it could be it could be a long time. But the the impact on you of giving it that time has been so significant. So it’s I think that’s a really, that’s a really powerful takeaway. So So what’s next for you? Tell us about what’s coming next.

Samuel Haughton 31:58
So I’m currently on the UK and Ireland Tour School of Rock. We are touring until August, thank goodness, even through COVID, and all kinds of things going on. I feel very, very fortunate that we’re continuing. And it looks like we’re going to we’re going to get there, it didn’t always look like we were going to get there. But it certainly looks that way. Now, that’s very exciting. That’s me until August. I am making the choice to take a little bit of time. Because there’s a couple of other things going on. We’ve got some very exciting family stuff going on. I am running the marathon in which has now been pushed back to October. So it’ll be needing to do some fundraising for that. And a little bit of travel, maybe on the cards. And then it will be okay, what are we doing next. But alongside that talent management will still be going on, I will still be doing some teaching. The great thing about touring is I’ve been able to teach some places that I don’t normally get to being London based. So that’s been really exciting. And I’m looking forward to doing more of that. And then we will run headfirst into the next adventure.

Gary Crotaz 33:12
Fantastic. And so where can people find out more about you?

Samuel Haughton 33:16
So I’m on Instagram. My Instagram handle is @samuel.haughton.42 . I’m on Twitter at @samuelhaughton . And I also have a website, which is http://www.samuelhaughton.com

Gary Crotaz 33:31
Fantastic. Sam, thank you so much for being on the podcast and sharing your story. It’s been it’s been a delight. And I knew you were going to be an amazing, and you’re going to be an amazing guest. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. What Sam brings to life is how you need to give your brain the space and time to do the thinking it needs to do. And then when you’re clear on the path ahead. You need to back yourself and go all in. We live life to deadlines, chores, tasks, outputs, problems to be solved. But when you’re figuring out what you want from work and life, you can’t think to a deadline. Taking the time to figure things out and find the path that’s right for you is the foundation for a fulfilling life ahead. Sam, thank you so much for joining me on The Unlock Moment and best of luck with the tour. Thank you.

Samuel Haughton 34:24
Thank you.

Gary Crotaz 34:26
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!