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Gary Crotaz 0:00
Hi, Gary here. This episode of The Unlock Moment is very special, very moving, very powerful. Listening back, I was amazed at Anthony and Kel’s richness of thought, their perspective, their wisdom at such a young age – still only in their 20s. Anthony and Kel Matsena have been through a huge amount in their lives. Being uprooted from their home in Zimbabwe, terrible family tragedy, and their experience of oppression has shaped their creative identity as breakthrough choreographers and performers. But so has the warm community that welcomed and embraced them in South Wales, the creative industry that has given them a huge platform, and the audiences who are wowed by their work. I’ve known the brothers a while and knew some of their story before we talked, but I have rarely had a conversation that has left me so affected. If you’re like me, you’ll be struck by how the tough times could so easily have pushed them to a really dark place, and instead have inspired them to speak through love, joy and empowerment in their creative voice. With most of these podcasts, we edit them down to give you just the best bits of the conversation. Here it’s so compelling, we just couldn’t take anything out. Sit back and listen in to this incredible interview with the extraordinary Anthony and Kel Matsena.

Anthony Matsena 1:33
I started university September, I think it was September 1st or September 2nd, at The Place. Really, really big change, London, big city, adjusted, first year. And a few months into my first year, on November 20th, our two older brothers were murdered in South Africa, Andrew and Alexander, and that completely just flipped not just my life, the life of our whole family, it shook us up. And I had to leave school and go back home. And there was something that was really difficult to to understand. I distinctly remember a conversation my brother Andrew, who used to mentor me a lot, we went for a walk the night before we caught the flight at midnight and he gave me all these words of wisdom that I still carry with me today. But he said something to me that, in that moment, removed the dreams of what new life we were going to, and he put a drop of realism, and he said, I hope that we’ll get to play another one-on-one basketball match together, because that was our sport, we played basketball all the time. But if we don’t, don’t ever stop playing, just because I can’t see you again. I made the decision to keep going, to go back to school, knowing that the answer was was in me keeping going and not stopping, and doing that awakened something in me because I couldn’t face school or dance or art in the same way I was looking at it where I was looking for the industry to give me answers and to give me opportunities and to create a voice for me. So something changed in me, something that was always bubbling, this sense of like, this character of mine who always wanted to create. So what happened is the pot just boiled over and I had to speak, and I had to speak through through my movement, and the first piece I made after this was This I Must Understand, which was me trying to understand the grief that was going on in me. People loved the piece, it was gut-wrenching, it was in your face. In that moment I realised the power of creativity, but also the power I had to make work. And that was an incredible feeling that something so tragic and terrible had budded also something so meaningful and beautiful that their memory wasn’t just something that was soured and something that is, you know, kind of made me bitter and sour about the world but something that had given me a kind of boost into something, into, into creativity, into composition, into choreography, but more importantly into activism, into seeing the world and and realising that the world isn’t as nice as maybe you think it is, so unveiling the truths of society and delivering that to an audience is something that is now, is now part of me.

Kel Matsena 5:06
When you’re dealing with work like this, you need a lot of heart, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of support, a lot of laughter as well. You know, it’s in our nature, we like to enjoy ourselves as human beings, especially when we’re doing something we love. whilst still also balancing that we are dealing with a very serious topic and honouring the people and the stories we’re telling. But in that we have to protect ourselves as people and approach it with heart, with love, with joy, with laughter. If we just make it an all-black cast, our audience members, we’re going to invite all the people we know and we’re going to have a mainly black audience, and we’re all just sat there just agreeing with each other, which does nothing, it really does nothing. So we wanted that cast to be diverse, we wanted a super-diverse audience, as well as that, because we live in a society and these issues affect us all. They’re not individual, you know, how you think about the black community or about the tension between young people and the police, that is not exclusive to one person, it affects everyone. And we need everyone to be involved in these conversations. And we need that audience to be diverse. So we really loved it at the end of the show that you’d see people going at each other. But, Oh, no, but that shouldn’t have been! Oh, but that was a bit much for me! And Oh, no, I love that. And that’s really what it’s about, bringing different minds together.

Anthony Matsena 6:31
But I would say know that, no matter how, how dire and how nasty or how dark a hole you find yourself in, know that you make your way out of it, not because you’re brilliant, and you’re doing it by yourself, but because of the people around you. Trust in them. Ask for help. Ask them to lend you a hand. They’ll come to your saving. And remember the last thing, that the traumatised are unpredictable, because they know they can survive. And you are unpredictable, because you know you can survive. Never forget that.

Gary Crotaz 7:17
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. The phrase emerging stars is often bandied about in the world of dance, theatre and film. But in the case of Anthony and Kel Matsena could not be more appropriate. Their powerful mix of contemporary dance and spoken word is taking audiences by storm. And they brought their latest piece, Shades of Blue, referencing oppression in the black community in the wake of the murder of George Floyd to the world-renowned Sadler’s Wells theatre here in London to rave reviews. But their message is much more than this. It’s a message of love, joy, empowerment and community that I know they will bring to life throughout this conversation. I’ve never met anyone quite like them. And I’ve been working hard to bring them to you on The Unlock Moment for quite a while. Theirs is an extraordinary journey from the streets of Zimbabwe to Swansea in Wales, the gymnastics studio, achieving places in prestigious dance and acting schools, and now bringing their own message through choreography and performance to great acclaim. They were featured recently in a dedicated BBC documentary about their lives, entitled Brothers in Dance. All of this and they’re still only in their 20s. This is a very special episode of The Unlock Moment. And I know it’s one that will stay with you for a long time. Sit back and listen to this incredible story. It’s my great privilege to be bringing it to you. So without further ado, Anthony and Kel, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Kel Matsena 9:45
Hello, hello, hello!

Anthony Matsena 9:47
Hello Anthony here. Good to be here. Thank you.

Kel Matsena 9:50
Yeah, Kel here. Pleasure to be on the show.

Gary Crotaz 9:53
So Anthony, start out by telling us a little bit about growing up in Zimbabwe in the late 90s, early 2000s. What was that like for you, what was the country like at that time?

Anthony Matsena 10:02
The country was flourishing, it was at an incredible place. The economy from the outside looked like it was stable. People were able to advance in careers, in their lives, save money, take their children to extraordinary schools, not just Zimbabwe but around the world. Dreams were being met and fulfilled. And there was a lot of openness in what you could be as well. There were a lot of artists coming up. The music scene was incredible. A lot of sports stars were coming out of Zimbabwe, because there was a lot of support that, in that area. But firstly, I fondly remember the gatherings, the gatherings of our family, friends, people who were friends, but I always thought they were family and only found out weren’t even related! But just sheer joy of community. The amount of aunties, uncles, nephews, nieces, great aunts, great uncles, grandparents, it was just epic, epic music, epic times, epic dancing, it was, it was a whole lot of fun, a whole lot of joy. I really have the best kind of memories there. And they’re really engraved in my memory, despite being so young. I remember them like they were yesterday. And school was a blast. The schooling system was really, really, really great. I woke up every day, like, you know, like a rabbit, just spring out of bed and I was ready to go! I was always the first one up and yeah, I loved it, I really did love it.

Gary Crotaz 11:38
And Kel, paint a picture of your family. You had a large family?

Kel Matsena 11:42
Oh, yes, large, large family. I mean, my mother, she has nine siblings, well she, she had nine siblings. And my father had, I think six siblings. So you imagine they all had kids, those kids had kids. So it was literally, the amount of birthdays and parties, it was like, every weekend you were going to someone’s house, and you’d have all your cousins there, you’d just be running around. Because Zimbabwe is a country with a lot of space. So regardless of, you know, if you have a big house or a small house, there’s always so much garden space. And I just remember just being with like, 10, 15 of my cousins just running around playing tag, hide and seek, all this wonderful stuff. So we’re completely surrounded by love, by family, by joy, and by celebration, celebration of life. It was really engraved in us from a very young age.

Gary Crotaz 12:37
So Kel, you and Anthony were two of five brothers?

Kel Matsena 12:40
Yes, yes, myself and Anthony, two of five, two of the youngest actually. So yes, we feel like our parents really raised our oldest brothers. And then our oldest brothers raised myself and Anthony. So there’s just all this knowledge, me being the youngest as well. And getting to see four people who are quite similar to me in the way they think and approach life, and gaining all that experience. I think they were very generous and open as brothers in how much they shared about their experiences. So I kind of feel like I’ve lived their lives as well, which is really cool.

Gary Crotaz 13:14
And what was the span of ages across the five of you?

Anthony Matsena 13:17
There was an average space of three, three and a half years between us. So Arnold is four years older than me, Andrew, so it goes Alexander oldest, Andrew, Arnold, me Anthony, and then Kel whose, his birth name was Amukelani. So five A’s our parents gave us.

Gary Crotaz 13:41
I was going to say, there’s probably an A in there somewhere!

Anthony Matsena 13:43
There’s a lot of As in there. So yeah, between Alex and Andrew I believe it was four years, and then between Andrew and Arnold it was three years, and then between Arnold and me four years, then between Kel and myself is two and a half years. So it works out to about three years between.

Gary Crotaz 14:01
And what kinds of things did your parents do? What were they, what were they doing in Zimbabwe? What were their jobs?

Anthony Matsena 14:06
My dad, he studied accountancy and math at school, at university. So he started out as an accountant, and then went into managing Zupco, which was the national bus company, became managing director there and that was kind of his path, working for the different headquarters around Zimbabwe. And my mom, she started off a secretary and then started working for the WHO [World Health Organisation], for their malaria division, which was the headquarters for malaria in Africa. So she did a lot of work there. Did a lot of also translating. And yeah, she was very, very good at shorthand.

Gary Crotaz 14:53
Talk to me about what started to change and how that led you to moving over to the UK.

Anthony Matsena 15:02
First of all it was, the economy was starting to crash. You know, I vividly remember getting on the plane here, and having 40 million, which was 10, which, I had four $10 million notes. And that was enough to buy me a loaf of bread. But by the next day, it wasn’t enough to buy me a loaf of bread. So the inflation was just through the roof. I think at many times the inflation in Zimbabwe was the highest inflation in the world. So lots of things were going terribly. And then the UN decided to move the WHO main headquarters to the DRC [Democratic Republic of the Congo]. We didn’t want to live with the DRC. So my mom was out of work there. And she was really interested in a life in nursing because she’s always cared, wanted to care for people. So coming to the UK was now the option because her twin sister was here studying to be a nurse. And then at the company my dad was that, there were some shady businesses going down in, in a lot of the executives were trying to cut corners, or buying inferior buses from China instead of from India. And they eventually got caught and sent to jail. And they pushed my father out of the company, because he wouldn’t agree to do it. And then after that my dad owned an abattoir, which is, which was a joy. The amount of times I would go to school with biltong in my pocket, just snacking throughout the day. It was, for somebody who’s in a family of a lot of meat lovers, it was really great. But when Mugabe started to push out the white farmers and give his generals and people in the army, land that they had no right owning, they came in claimed the abattoir and the land that my dad and his friend owned. So there was, there was no form of any sort of income that was coming in, it was do we, do we push and fight away, do the struggle, and hope that better days are coming? But so far the trend around other African countries, as well as what’s happened before, it seems like it was going to get much, much worse for much longer, before it was even going to get better. And in 2008 when we came, it was just before the general elections and the political landscape was, was really shaky. I had never seen Zanu PF’s people, you know, driving around in pickup trucks with, like, machine guns in their hand. There was a lot of propaganda, which was making its way into the suburban areas. And it was just very frightening. And I think our parents just wanted us to have a fair shot at this game of life. So a lot of our family are here, so it seemed like the obvious and most sensible choice was to relocate and emigrate to the UK.

Gary Crotaz 18:05
And how old were you two at that time when you came over to Wales?

Kel Matsena 18:11
I had just turned 11, I believe. And then Anthony you were 13 going on 14?

Gary Crotaz 18:18
But not all of you were able to come over together?

Kel Matsena 18:21
No, no, at the time, not all of us were able to come down to the UK. Basically, it was myself, Anthony and our older brother Arnold, who’s third in line, we were able to come over to the UK, because we were all under the age of 18. And because our mother was already here, then it’s, it’s very easy to get a visa and to, you know, join your mother because you’re still under the care, because you’re not yet fully an adult. But for Alexander and Andrew, they were over the age of 18. So much harder for people 18 and older to get visas from Zimbabwe, still now and definitely still back then, because of what was going on with the country, there was a massive influx of people who were just migrating to the UK and Canada and all those sorts of countries. So if you apply for a visa, even if it was a holiday visa, unless you had a lot of money in your bank, unless you’re already studying in Zimbabwe, or you had very wealthy relatives over here in the UK, they didn’t trust that you were not going to land and emigrate straightaway. And none of those three, we had, basically so we were in the process of basically trying to get them their visas to come over to the UK. But it was much quicker for us three.

Gary Crotaz 19:41
And we have a very international audience here on The Unlock Moment. So for those who don’t know where Swansea is, paint a little picture of two young kids from Zimbabwe landing in Swansea and what that was like.

Anthony Matsena 19:54
It was surprising not as shocking because we had come over here for a holiday in 2006, so we had spent, I believe, six weeks in Swansea. But I was speaking to a friend last night and she was talking about the fact that living in London is now a complete different experience than when she came for holiday, because you just see the nice bits. So the shock was, you know, coming here on holiday, staying in our beautiful aunt’s house to then being immigrants and staying in like council houses and it was like, Whoa, what’s this world? And almost feeling, not feeling but knowing you’re a second class citizen. Knowing you’re not looked at as an equal to the rest of society. That was mental. But, all of that aside, Swansea is a beautiful place. Just the scenery, the beach, the woodlands, but more importantly the people. When we arrived at our house, when the Home Office put us in this house in Ravenhill, I wouldn’t even say an hour passed before the street was knocking on our door and welcoming, welcoming us saying, Hey, how you guys doing, you know, and introducing themselves. I just vividly remember our friends like Rhea, Cara and a few other people, like four or five of them, standing in our bare living room talking to us, it’s like, what do you, do you want to go out and play? But yes, I think that sense of community was not lost in that moment. I thought, Oh, we might be okay. But yes, Swansea’s a, it’s strange, but it’s beautiful. And it’s wonderful. And as much as, you know, all the greenery and the scenery, makes it a beautiful city, as well as the people. I’ve got to hand it to them. Speaking to other friends who’ve grown up in other parts in the UK, we were spoilt by the community we had, they supported us, they paid for classes, they did so many things for us that I don’t think we’d be able to be standing, sitting here on this podcast if it wasn’t for them. Yeah.

Gary Crotaz 22:02
Where did the love of movement and dance and performance begin for you two?

Kel Matsena 22:07
In terms of movement, dance, entertaining people and all of that, that’s always been part of our family and our culture. With those big family gatherings and stuff, there’d always be music blaring. And, you know, you’d always have an uncle, certain cousins just dancing around the whole time and entertaining each other, and having fun. So the idea of movement, the idea of groove, connection with music, that’s always been in our family. But in terms of it actually being a thing thing, in Zimbabwe people don’t really see it as that, it’s just a bit of enjoyment. But a career as a creative is like, whoa, that’s, you know, space talk. And that really doesn’t happen. But I think it was our oldest brother Arnold, who had such a love for performing. And the way he pursued it and was resilient in making a life out of this. I think that was really inspiring. And he’s, he’s the one who really first opened the doors for us. And we’re like, Oh, oh, this is an actual career! You can do this, like that, like that. So he took us under his wing, mentored us and then from then on, when I was living in Swansea, that’s when we started training, and just eat, sleep, breathe, dance, you know, we’d wake up before school, 6am. And we’d be doing the dance drills, straight back from school, you’d have a ham sandwich, a bit of Hannah Montana on Disney Channel, and then straight back to hours of dancing till bedtime. So it just, it became a lifestyle, it became a culture, later on it became a career but the love for it started from a very young age. So for us, it just feels natural when we hear music and we start moving to it. Because it just makes me think of my grandma, my auntie, my uncle, my brothers, cousins, all of that.

Gary Crotaz 23:59
Anthony, where did it start for you?

Anthony Matsena 24:01
Yeah, I would, I gotta say it started with our brothers. I just have these memories of certain, there was, there was this thing on Saturdays where our brothers, before they would go out to whatever events they were going to, at the time they were like 18, 20 they were at that age of like figuring out life. What they would do around 12pm, we had these massive speakers, which were in the living room. They would wheel those out to the veranda and they would thump music for like the whole street and it would go on for hours and hours, and I had little to no rhythm then, and little to no dance moves. But I would sit there and just enjoy Andrew, Alex, Arnold, just dancing to dance or reggae, hip hop, R&B, Zimbabwean music, like traditional music, it would just go on and on and on. And I didn’t realise that in those moments, I was learning the essence of how to love and enjoy music and dance just for yourself even without an audience. So those, I think those moments were the, were the, were the moments when things started to flicker and to start for me. And because of that, I was, I was so adamant. And I was like, I’m going to learn to dance so, so every day I would, after school, I’d go in the mirror, and slowly try and teach myself how to do the Wave. And once I conquered the Wave, oh, it was like Game Over! It was like, Yes, I could do this. And then the real, real big moment. Or the few actually, was Kel and I got to dance to Usher. And I think, I can’t remember which Usher song it was, but it was for a school talent show. And it was in the school assembly hall, and the stage was quite high. So you could see everybody and I remember us just doing this duet, and that was the first time we started our legendary career of duets. And the hall erupted! And that feeling, I was like, I wanted to just bottle it, put it in a little, a little jar and just sip on it from time to time. I remember, I remember that gave me the confidence to be like, Oh, all that time in the bedroom, then to wave and do all of that, it’s paid off. I can actually do this. And then I guess, like Kel said, the real moment was coming, was coming here and seeing Arnold pursue the career, and seeing that it was financially viable, and that you could earn money and that there was a pathway, it wasn’t so clear, it wasn’t even the path we were on now. But they were pathways in terms of dancing. That, you know, that for me was a big moment.

Gary Crotaz 26:47
And the two of you both decided that you wanted to pursue this as a professional career and you went, you went to top dance schools, to top acting schools. So what was the point where you figured out this is more than just something I love doing, this is something that I want to make my life?

Anthony Matsena 27:05
For me, I had, I actually had a terrible time during my A levels. So during the summer between my AS and A levels, I’d done pretty well in my AS. So I was looking forward to my A levels. And I vividly remember this, because the London Olympics were on at the time. And I all of a sudden got really ill from being super-fit, being in gymnastics, dancing, training, I just woke up with a cold, a sore throat. And then over a few days, I just deteriorated and ended up in hospital at the age of like 18, or whatever it was, really, really fit. And I had this heart condition, acute pericarditis. So I remember being in, I was meant to be in the hospital for two weeks. And I was meant to take beta blockers and this other drug called ramipril for the rest of my life, and I was not going to be able to exercise. Long story short is I managed to fully recover in a few months. And because I missed so much of school, because of being ill, I had to go to college, and when I went to college, I decided to take dance as just a supplementary subject. Because I remember being in the hospital saying, you know, Has my life, has my life been stolen from me? You know. And if I’m going to do this, and if whoever showed me the sign that life can be taken away from you so quickly, I need to try and live a life that I want to live. So I vividly remember doing the dance classes and realising that when I’d go to physics, chemistry, and maths, I didn’t have the same joy I had when I was in my dance classes at college. And then the biggest moment was when we did, I did National Dance Wales in 2014. I remember in the summer walking through the hallway from the studio to the Green Room. And it’s this specific hallway in the Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama where I said, Oh yes, I’m going to do this dance thing, I’m going to apply for dance school. And when I made that conscious decision, because that was my first professional experience dancing from 10 till 6 and creating a work, I was like, if this is what it’s going to be like, I am totally sold. So yeah, that for me, that was the moment I decided to go to dance school, but not only go to dance school, I had only one dance school I wanted to go to and that was The Place and that’s the only place I auditioned. I was like, If I don’t get into there, I’m not going anywhere else. That’s the only place I want to go.

Gary Crotaz 29:31
And what was it about The Place, London Contemporary Dance School, that, that made you so clear that that was it for you?

Anthony Matsena 29:38
So when I would go watch shows, I’d get the programme, or I’d go on different choreographers’ websites, and check the bios of the dancers. And a lot of the companies I wanted to, I found that there was a trend that there was at least one or two people who had gone to The Place. With some of the schools I felt that there’s certain companies aesthetically that you’d see them in, but they, they weren’t across the whole band of the industry. But also the alumni of The Place had so many different roles in these companies. So you know, I started to see that there were a lot more choreographers, a lot more different careers you could pursue after that. But most importantly, one of my mentors, big brothers, Joseph Toonga, he had just done a two-week residency with us before we did the three weeks at National Dance Wales, so he had just graduated from The Place. And he’d come to Swansea to make a piece with us. And here I was met with a man who is from African descent, but growing up in Europe, in London, he’s gone to The Place, he’s black, and he’s making amazing choreography, and he’s gone to this School. So for me, it was like, it was kind of like the same beacon of light Arnold had for me. I was like, well I want to live some kind of career or pathway that he’s taken. And if the School has looked after him, and nurtured that in him, there might be a place for me there. So yeah, that was, that was my thinking at the time.

Gary Crotaz 31:03
And Kel, for you, you had the dance drive, but also for acting as well?

Kel Matsena 31:08
Yeah, so it sort of progressed in a few steps for me. I think first off, I was not interested in every dance. Not at all. I was like, no, no, no, I’m not dancing with my shoes off. I don’t know what weird stuff those people do with their toes, no, no, no, no! And I was very much into just mainly hip hop and street dance. And you know, these different ideologies, probably because we don’t understand each other’s worlds that much. But Anthony was very persistent. And he was like, come, come to, come to class, come to contemporary dance. And at that time, we were both in college at the same time, because although I was younger, because of Anthony’s heart condition, we ended up being in the same year at college, which was really cool, actually, because we got to study at the same time. But I was just doing the sciences and the maths. And I was just focused on that, I wanted to be a chemical engineer. And I thought dancing was just something for fun. And then I started going to contemporary classes, and I was like, Oh, okay, this is this really cool. And then I started getting introduced into the way people make work and how, how theoretical and academic you could make your physicality. And I was like, Wow, I love the theory. I love the academics. But I can bring that into dance. I can use concepts. I can use my knowledge in chemistry to make a contemporary dance piece. I was like, This is amazing. And then I started watching more work. I remember watching Motion House in I think it was 2014 in Cardiff, Sherman Theatre. Anthony was like, Okay, I need to take the whole family so that you understand what this is. And I watched them do this piece and I was just like, Oh my God, I couldn’t believe it! And then that’s when I was like, okay, contemporary dance can be a thing. And same thing. I did National Youth Dance Wales. And after doing National Youth Dance Wales, I was like, Oh, okay, living, breathing dance, living like a dancer, I can do this. And then had to have the conversation with my parents. I was about to go to uni. Like, maybe two weeks after I came back from this National Youth Dance Wales summer course. And then I was like, Look, guys, I can’t, I can’t go to uni, I have to pursue dance, which was tough at first, you know, being from, you know, having African parents and, you know, it’s definitely not a viable career option for a lot of people back in Africa. So for them, it was quite tough, but they finally got behind it. So I auditioned for London Contemporary Dance School, same time as Anthony. Loved the audition, it was just one of the most fun auditions we’ve, I’ve ever done, and we’ve done together. And then the letters came through. Anthony got through and I didn’t get through! And oh, I tell you, this little heart of mine just went into a million tiny pieces because suddenly something that it took a while for me to convince myself that I’m gonna go to dance school. And then I auditioned and I didn’t get in. And that was really tough to deal with. But something very interesting happened there, was, I found myself in a place where I was like, Okay, so if I’m going to have time where I’m going to re-audition for dance schools because I’m not going to uni, I might as well use that time to do what I’ve always wanted to do as well, is do some drama and do some theatre, figure out some acting. So I went and went back for a third year college, finished off my dance but then picked up English literature, language, and as well drama, and just fell in love with it and rediscovered Shakespeare, rediscovered my love for language. And suddenly it just, you know, when you think you love something, and that’s just your thing, and then something else comes along that you love just as much, it was, that was what acting was for me. So I applied for dance schools and drama schools, and then ended up going to Bristol Old Vic Theatre School which was just the perfect place for me. You know, from the moment I walked in, I sort of went, Wow, this can be a home. This can be a place I can rediscover. This can be a place I can investigate for three years. So yeah, a lot of steps to get there but eventually found the place I was meant to be in.

Anthony Matsena 35:12
I vividly remember your selfie outside the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School and that smile you had, I think you still had braces at the time. And I just, I knew what I saw that photo, I was like, Oh, I’ve lost him to the dark side, he’s not going to come back!

Gary Crotaz 35:31
An amazing articulation of, you know, when one door closes, another one opens. That, you know, if you hadn’t been rejected by The Place, then maybe that drama thing would never have been unlocked in you, which… and it’s interesting now, we’ll come and talk to this later, but it’s it’s an integral part of your work together, the spoken word that comes through that Kel you deliver. So bring us forward Anthony, to 2015. And, and the thing that happened that started to change your life and your outlook.

Anthony Matsena 36:03
Yeah, so I started university September, I think it was September 1st or September 2nd at The Place. Really, really big change, London, big city, adjusted, first year. And a few months into my first year, on November 20th, our two older brothers were murdered in South Africa, Andrew and Alexander. And that completely just flipped not just my life, the life of our whole family, it shook us up. And I had to leave school and go back home. And there was something that was really difficult to understand and to make a decision for myself. Do I stay at home and grieve for a year and then come back? Or do I come back after the Christmas break and continue onward? And I won’t lie to you, most of me wanted to stay because the pain and the weight of it, of dealing with that, with that tragedy was a lot, was really a lot. And also seeing my family go through it. Because you know one thing you don’t understand about grief till you suffer a grief that affects a lot of people, you realise that everybody goes about it their own way. And that’s so frustrating. And in so many ways if you don’t come to terms with that. But I distinctly remember a conversation my brother Andrew, who used to mentor me a lot. We went for a walk the night before we caught the flight at midnight, and he gave me all these words of wisdom that I still carry with me today. But he said something to me that in that moment removed the dreams of what new life we’re going to, and put a, he put a drop of realism. And he said, I hope that we’ll get to play another one-on-one basketball match together, because that was our sport. We played basketball all the time. But if, but if we don’t, don’t ever stop playing, just because I can’t see you again. And I made that, I made the decision to keep going, to go back to school, knowing that the answer was, was in me keeping going and not stopping. And doing that awakened something in me because I couldn’t, I couldn’t face school or dance or art in the same way I was looking at it, where I was looking for the industry to give me answers, and to give me opportunities, and to create a voice for me. A lot of, you know, a lot of dancers say their choreographer speaks to me, that’s where I want to be. But I couldn’t see that. And I couldn’t feel that in, around the industry. So something changed in me, something that I had was always bubbling, this sense of like, this, this character of mine who always wanted to create, I vividly remember having disagreements with Arnold when he used to like choreograph for us as a trio. I’m like No, but we should go this way. Or you go this way. He was like, No, no, we’re going this way. So I look back at those moments and I laughed. And I was like, Oh, yes, I already had a knack for it! So what happened is the pot just boiled over and I had to speak, and I had to speak through my movement. And the first piece I made after this was This I Must Understand, which was me trying to understand the grief that was going on in me. And This We Must Understand, there was a trio and then there was a version I did with 11 dancers in first year. And we did it the end of first year and I know, we’d do these student platforms at The Place and people enjoyed them, and they clapped. And that was the first time people stood on their feet. There was a standing ovation, people loved the piece, it was like a 25 minute piece, it was gut wrenching, it was in your face. In that moment, I realised the power of creativity, but also the power I had to make work. And that was an incredible, incredible feeling that something so tragic and terrible had budded also something so meaningful and beautiful that their memory wasn’t, wasn’t just something that was soured. And something that is, you know, kind of made me bitter and sour about the world, but something that had given me a kind of boost into something, into, into creativity, into composition, into choreography, but more importantly, into activism, into seeing the world and realising that the world isn’t as nice as maybe you think it is, so unveiling the truths of society and delivering that to an audience is something that is now, is now part of me.

Gary Crotaz 41:06
Unpack that word activism for me, what does that mean for you?

Anthony Matsena 41:12
Kel better articulated this when he said, I’m a creative activist, because I’m not, I’m not the activist who’s on the streets, shouting, I sign my petitions, I try and do my work. But I feel as an activist, it’s my, it’s my responsibility as a creativity to keep people aware, and to remove the falsehood of what’s in front of us and to, like I’m repeating myself in terms of saying unveiling the truths in our world, because we, we’re often trying to kill ourselves and lie to ourselves. So it’s a lot of, for me, it’s about honesty, it’s about honesty about what’s going around the world. You can’t just switch off your phone, you can’t just turn off your TV from it. I try and deliver the stories that maybe the people with the smallest voices, or the quietest voices, or the most oppressed voices, would want to say and bring forward to an audience. So I think as an activist, that’s my role, it’s in highlighting the truths in the world, no matter how uncomfortable, no matter how tragic, no matter what they are, we need to confront them in a way that isn’t combative, but in a way that breeds understanding, and breeds conversation, so we can further understand what it is, what it is, these situations are, and our relationship to them, and how we can assist them and how we can, I think the power of conversation is everything, you know, if conversation is, is the primary thing that, that is, is a primary thing that sparked change, not violence, not conflict, but conversation. That’s how I feel.

Gary Crotaz 42:51
And Kel, what was going on for you at this time?

Kel Matsena 42:52
So yes, so at this time in 2015, I was now just starting out my third year in college. So yes, it just picked up all the English language and the acting, as well as really focusing on the auditions for the dance schools. And then this tragic event happened in November. And that was, that was very strange. And having to deal with with grief that close. In the years leading up to that there had been quite a bit of grief actually leading that because of what was happening in Zimbabwe, life had become very difficult. So I had been faced with quite a lot of grief at a young age. And it had become almost this ritual about how we get through it, but it always was a slightly more distant cousin. But then when it’s a sibling, it was, yeah, I just didn’t really know how to digest that. Even when I think back to that time. There’s so many gaps, because there’s just, it was such, the information was so hard to digest. But what had happened is that I sort of decided to carry on with college as well, just carry on studying, focusing up and carrying on with the auditions. And still being inspired by my brother’s memory and how we’ve been about, as a family about, you know, resilience and pushing through. But then what happened is that the first play I really picked up and read and used for all my auditions was Hamlet. I read that first soliloquy. And I remember just my heartstrings just going ‘pang’ and just being pulled, reading that first soliloquy, because I don’t think I had the language or the understanding to even articulate what I was feeling, which it probably was like, Oh, just be resilient and carry on through, because I just didn’t know how to digest this information. And then suddenly, here’s this dude from you know, 16th, 17th century England who’s written out basically what I’m experiencing, written it out in detail, grief and everything. And it was just, it provided so much closure for me. I know sometimes I say it feels like it saved me a lot. And I remember seeing a live stream of puppets doing Hamlet with the RSC, it was a 2016 production. And it was just unbelievable. And it provided so much closure for me, it helped me articulate what I was feeling. And I remember after watching that, in our local cinema, just going, Wow, if this is what theatre could do, this is what dance, words can do, to literally pull me out of this, this hole where I didn’t even understand what was going on around me. But suddenly, I am seeing clearer, I can articulate things. And I was like, if I can do this for people, then that’s really important work, that is a really important thing to do. And that’s when I set my sights on, Yeah, let’s, let’s carry on with this, let’s really make this a career and, you know, to be in a position where we’re having that effect on people. It just makes an 18 year old Kel really proud. Because, yeah, that was such an important thing for me.

Gary Crotaz 46:12
So bring us forward then to the origins of Shades of Blue. So where did that come from? And where was, where were you in the first moment when you thought, we know this is what we have to put together?

Kel Matsena 46:29
Well, what had happened is sort of March 2020, myself and Anthony, we’d been, we’d started up the company, I think 2017, when we had started it up and there was real fuel with the company, you know, we’re saying what we needed to say to the work and then sort of about 2018, 2019 our work in the company sort of slowed down and we started to pursue solo ventures pretty much, and we’re finishing off uni, all this sort of stuff. But what happened in March 2020 was, because of COVID, we all just, myself, all our brothers, we just came back to Swansea and then just started living together and had to go back to, to just ground level. It felt like 2008, being in the same house again. And just looking at each other and reclocking in into why we were doing this, like oh, okay, about each other. It’s about lifting each other’s voices. It’s about lifting the voices which aren’t being heard, because I was off doing a theatre show that was touring the UK and after the US. Anthony was doing commissions all over the UK. So things were going really great. But then we’d sort of lost sight of what we wanted to do together as a family. But what happened in May 2020 with the murder of George Floyd, may he rest in peace, it was, I know personally for me, I don’t know about you Anthony, I sort of avoided the video for a few days. Because in the lead up to that, there was so much stuff going on and you had Ahmaud Arbery, you had all this stuff going on in New York and Manhattan, you know, them going into black neighbourhoods and just terrorising people through the… There was this, it just felt like things were on fire. And I really, I couldn’t deal with that. Because, you know, being black, and being in the UK, and all of this sort of stuff, you get a sense of, of all this stuff. And sometimes it’s just too much. And I didn’t know what it would do to me. So I avoided that video. But when I finally watched it, it was just gut wrenching. And everyone who seen the video or watched the trial or all of that just knows how crazy that situation was. And, and sadly, it had been happening for so long. But I think what happened is, because we were all stuck in our houses, there was no form of escape, there was no way to avoid that, the whole world really saw this situation for what it is, and everything else that was going on around it, because that video really erased a lot of ambiguity. You just saw the ridiculousness of what was happening in that situation, completely unnecessary. And it just felt like suddenly, we were all speaking the same language and everyone was ready to listen, ready to hear. And for myself and Anthony, we’ve been experiencing incidents of you know, racism and stuff like that, but we just never know how to articulate it. We didn’t have language, we didn’t really understand it too well ourselves. That’s the difficult thing about some of the racism you experience in the UK that it’s, it’s, it’s not very much in your face. It’s all the little things, all the terms like microaggressions and all this sort of stuff we’ve, we’ve experienced these things, like that feels off but I don’t know why it feels off, and trying to understand all of that. But for years we’d cared about this, even in the work we made, our work had always been perhaps a flavour of a political energy, it was always about, you know, fighting injustices. But because we didn’t have the language, and also we weren’t, we didn’t feel like audiences were really ready to be faced with the rawness of whatever we needed to say, there was a real distance and ambiguity to a lot of the work. You know, we always laugh and say how we’d, you know, change the title of the work to a French word, or a word of an African language, that no-one really knows, just add a bit of distance, and then you check the programme note, and it’s all this very beautiful language, which is really just trying to avoid the crux of it. But May 2020 hit and we were like, look, we finally understand what we need to say, and it feels like the world and audiences are really ready to hear this. So we just hit the ground running. And although it was COVID times, because we’re living in the same house we could carry on creating, we could carry on exploring ideas, carry on writing, choreographing. So we just, you know, sort of went full speed ahead and made a full-length work, called Geometry of Fear with the Messums Wiltshire. Alongside that we made a short film called Are You Numb Yet? and a feature film called Error Code. So all in that summer, we were, you know, pushing out content. But what happened is that Messums Wiltshire live-streamed that performance, live performance of Geometry of Fear, which caught the attention of Sadler’s Wells, who Anthony had been working with, and you can explain that relationship in a bit Anthony. But then, it was really perfect timing because Sadler’s Wells were working with the BBC at the time on a programme called Dancing Nation, which is basically a programme so that the BBC and Sadler’s Wells could show that, even though we’re going through COVID, there’s still people out there supporting arts, supporting dance, supporting creativity. And they asked us to be a part of that. And to do a section from Geometry of Fear. But for me and Anthony, we feel like being honest about this kind of work. The conversation is always evolving when you’re dealing with work that deals with these themes. And the difference to what you’re seeing in May of 2020 is very different to when we did the programme in January of 2021. The conversation is always evolving. So we decided look, let’s title the work something new. And let’s continue to move the conversation forward and say something new with it, which is where Shades of Blue came along, that title, which was done as an excerpt of BBC Dancing Nation, and has quickly grown into this full length work that we’ve now done on Sadler’s Wells main stage, in Dance East in Ipswich and Royal Welsh College in Cardiff.

Gary Crotaz 52:53
Anthony, tell me about the impact of George Floyd for you.

Anthony Matsena 52:58
Yeah. Realised that my pain and my confusion about my my place in British society… was an experience that I had to feel like was my own. That there was a community out there, who not only have been going through what I’ve been going through, but needed, needed in many ways, I needed to realise that there was there was more for us than we realised that were out there. And not only did people who were, who looked like me, were ready to support one another, and here you saw them uplift each other, that there are many people within society, who had our back, who are ready to listen, who are ready to protest, who are ready to go in the streets, who have been doing that for a long time. It opened my eyes up to that, and like Kel said about the language, because I’ve come to understand that it’s very, it’s very hard to notice or understand something if you don’t have the language for it. I was, I was with a friend yesterday and they were saying that the Portuguese don’t have a word for the, for a lime, you know. So when they started learning English, they either they call it, they’re like what’s a lime and what’s a lemon? Because it’s just like lemon and green lemon. And for them, it’s so hard to understand what that simple thing is to me who, I’ve grown up knowing the difference between a lemon and lime but because the language isn’t there, you can’t identify what that thing is. So in many ways, those feelings were cloudy, they were nebulous. What I was going to do was very nebulous as a young British black man, but in that moment, something just clicked. Clicked in terms of the community that I was a part of, but also the global community, but also the outreach and the need to not be silent and quiet and do sort of some time make work that’s kind of about it, but isn’t, but to go full steam ahead. Because what I what I watched on that, on my phone, I just couldn’t believe it was real. And I needed, for me in that moment, I was like, the world needs to know that this is real. This is really what people are going through is real. If this has been caught on camera, what else hasn’t been caught on camera? You know, there’s many, many stories out there. And there’s many people out there who are suffering, who need a voice, and who need a sense of community. But above all of that the first thing was an extraordinary amount of pain. I don’t think I’ve cried over a video, or, I think I was shocked at first, I couldn’t even cry. I was so shocked. And I think I just cried in silence, and in the dark, because I was like, What the hell? What is going on? With everything that was going on with COVID, and it just felt like Kel said, the world was on fire. But yes, lots of different things, lots of coming of age and coming to understand my position and coming to own my blackness, and own my my Africanness, and own my Welshness, and own a lot of things that I was shameful of. There was a lot of, there was a lot of, a lot of things that would just get in clicked and turned on. But yes, an extraordinary amount of grief and pain for someone I’d just known for at that time, eight minutes, 46 seconds. But I feel so connected to that, to that person, not just because of the moment and the global moment. But I’ve, I’ve never, I’ve never heard vocal cords shout and scream for help like that. And I have such a deep connection to my parents. And when he says mama, that, that had just like, is ingrained in me. And yeah, it’s, for me, what was also upsetting, it was how some people were trying to defend the means of which the first officer took and how some people was trying to deny it and say it’s a fake video and all of that, that to me just outraged me. And I was, you know, I just I just felt like we had to get that story out, and many of the other stories out there. But yeah, a tremendous amount of grief and pain. And a lot of loneliness, which then turned out to be, you’re not, you’re not, you’re not alone. There are lots of people out there who want to talk and who want to have conversations. And also just extremely inspired by the way some arts organisations decided enough is enough. And let’s be brave, let’s trust that our audience will still come if it’s not the Nutcracker, it’s Shades of Blue, they will still come. To me I’ve been really thankful to the sector that, you know, they held themselves accountable and said we need to put more of this work out there.

Gary Crotaz 58:17
So these two incredibly powerful, impactful moments in your life, the murder of your older brothers in 2015, and then the experience around the death of George Floyd in 2020 sparked an activism but then sparked a real clarity around the work that you needed to do. So Anthony, paint a picture of what is Shades of Blue, and what is the message, the story that comes through that piece?

Anthony Matsena 58:53
I feel like Shades of Blue has a three-sided coin. It has one side that shows the joy, the intelligence, the power of the youth of today. And then it has a side where it strips away that, that joyfulness, that openness, that playfulness, that sense of community, because of the structures we have right now that are all pressing these young people and how young people in many ways are quite literally losing their voice. Though the, you know, although the laws getting passed to suppress protests and all of these things, just speaking to young people and how they feel like they will not be heard. There’s a lot of that. And then there’s another part about what that does, but also what does that do to you? It puts the, it puts the question in the, in the viewer – is this trauma porn? You know, are you going to keep watching these stories, clapping for them? Going on your feet, going into, going into the lobby or the bar after the show and saying, That was great, having your Pinot and going home and not doing anything about it. It questions how we view theatre and how we view trauma on stage for the audience. So it is not an answer. It is a series of questions and provocations that leave you as the viewer to make your choice. One of the most powerful things that we never expected was at the end of Kel’s epic monologue, he starts asking, Are you numb yet, are you numb? And he’s done this monologue, right? And we’ve never, even in the studio, we’ve never said No! Or, Yes! And you just heard the audience? No, no! Every time he kept asking, it was not meant to be an audience participation. But you saw, you saw what the power of theatre can do when you pause at groups and you actually ask genuine questions. So it is that and it’s also for me, it’s a way to… not to wrap up and move on, but it’s a place where I can find sanctuary in the pain that I have gone through in dealing with this topic so heavily over the last two years, it’s a place to put that somewhere so that it doesn’t just live and corrode me, because it’s very hard to stay in that world for a long time. And it’s also something that I think people who feel oppressed or feel like they’re losing their sense of self can rediscover either their love of creativity, their love of theatre, their love of dance, their love of family, community, friendship. I hope it can re-spark that in them. Like, re-spark the basic emotions that we experience that often we don’t allow ourselves to experience – joy, laughter, sadness, pain, all of this stuff that we always try and just stay on one continuous level. So it’s many things, and it has, excuse me for the pun, but it has many shades to it, you know? It has really a lot of shades to it – it’s not one particular thing. But yeah.

Gary Crotaz 1:02:13
And Kel, you didn’t have an all-black cast for Shades of Blue? It wasn’t a piece that you wanted to speak just to the black community?

Kel Matsena 1:02:21
Yeah, absolutely, there was conversations about that, about the casting of it and who would be in this work. And we decided that we were going to make the cast just as diverse as possible, and just go with our instincts in terms of the people we auditioned, and go with the people we feel just want to fight for whatever injustice they’ve experienced in their lives. And you know, the way we sort of go about picking the people we want to work with is we go for the people with the biggest hearts, although that may sound cheesy, or whatever. But we really go for the hearts because when you’re dealing with work like this, you need a lot of heart, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of support. A lot of laughter as well, a lot of people they see our work they’re like, Whoa, the studio must be crazy intense. And we’re like, No, we’re having a laugh, we’re having the greatest time, because, you know, it’s in our nature. We like to enjoy ourselves as human beings, especially when we’re doing something we love, whilst still also balancing that we are dealing with a very serious topic and honouring the people and the stories we’re telling. But in that, we have to protect ourselves as people and approach it with heart, with love, with joy, with laughter. And that’s how we go about picking people, so the casting was very open and very free. And we also felt like it needed to be diverse, because we wanted Shades of Blue to be a real picture of society. There’s very few spaces that are completely black or completely East Asian or completely white now, we’re, we’re becoming this global village. And the thing is, if we just make it an all-black cost, our audience members, we’re going to invite all the people we know and we’re going to have a mainly black audience, and we’re all just sat there just agreeing with each other, which does nothing, it really does nothing. So we wanted that cast to be diverse. We wanted a super-diverse audience, as well as that because we live in a society and these issues affect us all. They’re not individual, you know. How you think about the black community or about the tension between young people and the police. That is not exclusive to one person, it affects everyone. And we need everyone to be involved in these conversations. And we need that audience to be diverse. So we really loved it at the end of the show that you’d see people going at each other. But oh, no, but that shouldn’t have been. Oh, but that was a bit much for me. And oh, no, I love that. And that’s really what it’s about, sparking the conversation, bringing different minds together. And it really had to start in the room so that it spread out to the audience.

Gary Crotaz 1:04:56
And I think from my perspective, what happened with George Floyd’s murder was, was this piece of, as you said before, clarity, and the loss of ambiguity. And for the non-black community, actually, that you had an outpouring of people across all ethnicities saying, This is not okay. You know, this has to change. And I think it’s something that comes through really clearly in your work that it talks to, to people of all backgrounds, as you say, you know, it’s not a black cast and a black audience agreeing with each each other, it’s a diverse cast and a diverse audience, all agreeing with one another. And that’s really powerful. Anthony, if you watch Shades of Blue, and that’s all you’d seen of the Matsenas, then maybe you’d think, you know, you guys are the kind of angry political guys, you know, talking about oppression or whatever. Is that you?

Anthony Matsena 1:05:58
It’s a part of me, but it’s not all of me. A lot of fizz, a lot of laughter, a lot of silliness, a lot of joy, a lot of love for the, for the art of creating. I just love, I have a lot of interests, and they don’t just sit within politics. These are the, these other things in life that interest me equally as well, as well as that. So, you know, I don’t want to spend my whole life making work that is just political. I think I would say work will always be political in some sense, but not it being the driving force. You know, I had one of the most fun times directing Midsummer Night’s Dream alongside Kel and Jonathan Munby early in the year, and a lot of people who came and watched that were like, What? Did you really do all that? Because that’s not really you guys. I’m like, Alright, yes, it is. It is. It totally is. So it isn’t all of that I think, actually reflecting on Shades of Blue, when I think the first version of Shades of Blue seemed like angry political guy. But there’s a lot of playfulness and silliness in this version, that especially is at the beginning, that I hope people maybe who hopefully remember the whole piece, see that these different tones to, to the kind of work we want to make. So yeah, you know, I am not just the angry, angry political guy. I mean, he has an interest in life that I want to explore in many different creations. And I hope that the industry, especially the Arts Council, doesn’t expect that for people of the global majority, that they have to make work that reflects their societal position in Britain, that they can be free to make whatever work they want to make, because they’re great makers. Not because of the colour of their skin or their background.

Gary Crotaz 1:08:02
And Kel, what’s your reflection on the journey ahead for you guys?

Kel Matsena 1:08:06
Oh, the journey ahead! We’re just going to carry on just following our instincts and carry on exploring things we’re passionate about. I mean, myself and Anthony are real geeks, we love science and mathematics and equations and sequences, and we want to explore that in a creative space more and bring that through, because that’s what we were exploring in the early days. And, you know, the activist in us was, you know, awakened, but we still want to explore all those other things. And yeah, when, if something comes on that we feel really affected by politically and we want to speak on that, no, we’ll follow that instinct too, but it’s not the only thing we’re interested in. And, you know, going forward it’s really just trying to understand how we can really understand how to communicate dance on on, digitally, really, film and television and all of that. It’s still a very new age in terms of how dance is put on film and screen. Obviously, with acting we’ve, it’s been going on for such a long time. Opera is getting very good on film, because they’ve had three, four decades now trying to understand the medium. And for myself and Anthony, we really want to be spearheading that understanding of how we communicate dance through a screen. So those, that’s part of the next journey for us, is still rocking out on stage, and also on screen.

Gary Crotaz 1:09:35
One more big question, and I’d love to get both your perspectives on it. Kel, I’ll come to you first. If you could port yourselves back in time to Zimbabwe and meet Anthony and Kel, aged 11 and 14, before you moved over to Wales, and had an opportunity to put your arm around the shoulder and say something in their ear. What would you say?

Kel Matsena 1:10:00
That would be… I think if I, if I got to speak to my younger self, I very much remember being really young. And the ground was constantly shifting for us from, you know, sort of just after the early 2000s. My mom’s work, my dad’s work, us moving country, us trying to figure out we’re in between two places, okay, we have African heritage, but then now we’re in this place in Wales. And there was just constantly things shifting. And in that, what was really difficult is, when you’re jumping from community to community, place to place is, you can really see some people who are settled in their community, you can really see certain people living in a life that looks somewhat structured, you know, and I remember being quite jealous of that, being completely honest, of seeing that some people were able to plan ahead and have a path for their life, because things were following some sort of, some sort of steps, some sort of order. But for us, it felt like we don’t know what was going to happen next week, what was going to happen next month. And that was something that I really struggled with at first, but I think I’d tell my younger self that look, everyone’s journey is unique. And from a distance it may look like someone’s life is just really lovely and perfect, and you know, rose-tinted glasses, but everyone has their own hardships, you don’t know what’s going on behind closed doors. So, you know, there’s this quote I love from drama school. From my very first week, our head of acting, Paul Clarkson said, I think it’s a quote from Roosevelt, that comparison is the thief of joy. And I think comparison stole quite a lot of joy in my younger years. And still, and can very much steal joy, your joy as a creative as an actor, as a dancer, if you’re constantly comparing your journey. And I tell myself to just invest in my uniqueness, because my uniqueness is exactly why I’ll be able to affect the lives around me. So yeah, I think I told my younger self that it’s gonna be alright. Just focus on you and what’s going on around you.

Gary Crotaz 1:12:16
Anthony, if you were ported back in time to talk to your younger self, what would you say?

Anthony Matsena 1:12:22
I’d put a shoulder around him and give a little knuckle scratching the head and say, Hey, knucklehead. Stop, stop being so stubborn at times. But those, yeah, I think my younger, younger years, I was in such a loving environment that I never felt, I always felt like I could try anything. Even if I wasn’t good at it, I would just give it a go. Because the stakes had gone up so high when we moved and I was about to move, I felt like whatever choice out to make had to be the right choice. So often getting in my way before I’ve even had the chance to experience something, I would tell that person, Look, you always want to have the option to say no because you’ve tried it. You know, if something intrigues you in any kind of way, go and find out why. If it feels unrelated to what you’re doing, or your journey, it’s, it’s probably some sort of thread that’s going to help you excel on the journey that you’re on right now. So go out there and just give it a go. Give it a go. And remember that song you used to say to yourself when you were much younger, when things would go terrible. Tony don’t worry, about a thing. Yeah. ‘Cos every little thing’s gonna be alright! Yeah, as a kid I would sing that to myself, we don’t get really mad or get sad. But I would say just always give yourself the option and know that no matter how, how dire and how nasty or how, how dark a hole you find yourself in, know that you, you make, you make your way out of it, not because you’re brilliant, and you’re doing it by yourself, but because of the people around you. Trust in them. Ask for help. Ask them to lend you a hand and, you know, they’ll come to you’re saving. And remember the last thing, that the traumatised are unpredictable because they know they can survive. And you are unpredictable because you know you can survive. And never forget that.

Gary Crotaz 1:14:48
I love it. It’s so powerful. So what’s next for you in 2022? What are we going to see from Matsena Productions coming up through the next six months to a year or so?

Anthony Matsena 1:14:58
So Kel and I are doing a few solo projects. I’m doing a commission at The Place at the moment, at my old dance school, which is like a big, big come around moment, I’ve always wanted to do the graduation piece. I think that was one of my stamps of approval that I’m a choreographer is if I did, if I did this, I’m really enjoying that. Kel’s gonna come assist at some places. So the shows will be on from the 5th to the 8th of July. And then I’m also doing a massive pan-Wales project, which is part of the Unbox Festival. Our team is Collective Cymru, and the project is called GALWAD Call To Action, which is a trans-medium story that’s going to take place over radio, live performance, and on a massive broadcasting channel. And in many different forms over a whole week. So watch out for that. And the last week of September Matsena Productions is going to continue building a really thick and epic tour, and a slightly buffed up version of Shades of Blue, one version 4.06.3080 by this point! But that will be coming to you around the UK, around Europe, around America, we’re going to make it happen because people need to see the story. And hopefully in Zimbabwe, we will try and make that happen. And then we’ll also be working on a series of short films that we’re going to start filming towards the end of this year and releasing to you, and then there are some other projects that hey, there’s something called signatures to contracts that keep you, keep your mouth zipped up. And we can’t, we can’t speak on that. But there’s a lot coming your way. Don’t you worry!

Gary Crotaz 1:16:41
And Kel, your solo projects?

Kel Matsena 1:16:44
Oh, yes. And I’m currently working on a video game. And I can’t say what it, what it is. But that is very fun and strange to be in like, a very tight grey suit with all the sensors. But yes, that’s what I’ll be getting up to for part of this summer. And a film, as well as that, I’ve just finished writing my play supported by National Theatre Wales. So I’ll be doing some R&D for that this autumn. And cracking on with that. I’m very excited to really get into that too. And again, working on all the short film series and all that sort of stuff. So yeah, a whole lot of pen to paper. Well, keyboard really, a lot of writing and stuff. But yeah, it’s an exciting final half of this year!

Gary Crotaz 1:17:32
And if people want to follow you, where can they find you on social media and so on?

Kel Matsena 1:17:37
Oh, Facebook, Instagram, you find us @MatsenaProductions. At Twitter we’re @MatsenaProd because Twitter doesn’t allow you to have a very long name! And then check out our website too, Matsena Productions and then our personals are there as well, on Instagram I’m @KelMatsena and you guessed it Anthony…

Anthony Matsena 1:18:02
Anthony underscore Matsena @Anthony_Matsena

Gary Crotaz 1:18:04
The underscore is very important! We’ll put all those links in show notes so people can find you and follow you and find out about this incredible stuff that you’re filling your diaries with. I think you’re, you’re some of the busiest people in, in the entertainment industry at the moment. So it’s fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For breakthrough contemporary dance choreographers, performers and actors Antony and Kel Matsena, it was the tragic death of two of their older brothers that shifted the focus of their work and awoke a clarity of purpose in them around activism, telling stories and impacting real change. The murder of George Floyd sparked the creation of their most powerful piece to date, Shades of Blue, but also reinforced the importance of bringing the values of love, joy, empowerment and community through their performances to audiences around the world. They’re so young and so very talented, I’m incredibly excited to see what the Matsena brothers are going to go on and create over the coming years. Anthony and Kel, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment.

Anthony Matsena 1:19:08
Thank you for having us!

Kel Matsena 1:19:09
Thank you for having us!

Gary Crotaz 1:19:13
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon

Gary Crotaz 0:00
Hi, Gary here. So let me tell you a little about this episode of The Unlock Moment you’re about to hear. Cinta Miller is one of the top stylists in the business. She’s worked for some of the biggest brands in the world. She’s created looks for London Fashion Week. She’s worked with the likes of Robbie Williams and Ed Sheeran. But she didn’t make it to the top in her field by accident. This is a story that starts on a council estate, a challenging school environment, scraping by, living on tips to make enough money just to afford the bus fare to be able to get to work the next day. If you want to hear what it sounds like to make it through passion, grit, hard work, and serious amounts of hustle, this is the episode for you. Cinta is an amazing storyteller, honest and real. Maybe you feel the odds are against you. Maybe you feel people are knocking you back. Listen in, and this will give you the confidence that you can make it if you find your focus, back to your talent and your skills, and just refuse to give in. Let’s jump into this incredible new episode of The Unlock Moment. My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound, that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I am delighted to welcome Cinta Miller to the podcast. Cinta studied at the London College of Fashion before pursuing a career as one of the top hair and makeup designers in the music and fashion industries, as a brand collaborator and as a creative director. Cinta has worked with many of the biggest names in styling and fashion, including Revlon, Burberry, Estee Lauder, Tommy Hilfiger, and many others. And of course, many famous names in the music industry, including Anne Marie, Tom Grennan, Craig David, and JLS. She’s also responsible for me looking not so shabby on the cover photograph for this podcast! All the time I was looking serene, actually Cinta was in my ear, telling me what to do. I’m looking forward to hearing about her journey in fashion and music, and what she learned about staying sane in a crazy world. And of course, the remarkable moments of clarity, when she figured out the path ahead. Cinta, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Cinta Miller 3:10
Hi!

Gary Crotaz 3:12
Thank you so much for joining. Tell me a little bit about where this all started for you. Tell me a bit about your upbringing, and how you got into this world of fashion and music and makeup and hair and all this kind of thing.

Cinta Miller 3:24
Funnily enough, I never really thought I would be going in at a young age, I would go into a job that entailed hair and makeup. I always thought I would go into something a little bit more academic. And it’s funny that I should say the word academic, because I think in hair and makeup, there’s a real, it’s an it’s a bit of an old wives tale that people think if you do hair or makeup, then you weren’t necessarily that academic at school. And that’s a saying that kind of, you know, that bothers me a little bit. In terms of my childhood and upbringing, I’m one of five kids. I’m the youngest of five children. And I was raised up until a certain point by a single mum, we lost my dad when I was a child. And my mum remarried when I was six. So we live in… it didn’t feel like that then but looking back on it in retrospect, quite a rough council estate. But as a child, to me, it was just the best. It was the era where we were all going out in summer holidays, having water fights and you know, everybody knocked in each other’s doors and you know, you’re coming out today, you’re coming out, or we’re all going to, you know, we’re going down the field, or the rope swing. There was a real sense of community, which I don’t really think you see that much anymore. My secondary school actually wasn’t the best secondary school in the whole town, let alone in the area. They had a really, really terrible reputation. And I had friends that went to the, you know, the local grammar schools, oh were like, oh God you go to that school, ha ha, it’s really rough, doesn’t this happen there, doesn’t that happen there, don’t you just all smoke behind the bike sheds? And to be fair that did happen. But actually, I think coming from quite a big family, having lots of older siblings, and a single mum, my mum was Italian. I said my mum was because she actually passed away five years ago, but my mum was this incredible force of energy. She was just an absolute unstoppable woman, for the area that we lived in, and for the upbringing that I had, I… as a kid, I always thought we, you know, we had quite an affluent life and lived in a really affluent area, because we wanted for nothing, we were always fed. You know, there was always a three course meal. And when I say a three course meal, I literally mean a three course meal every night, at the table. The table was always laid properly, we always had dinner, sat at a table, no TV, we all had chores, the house was run like clockwork, and we just went without. But I think having older brothers and sisters kind of look down, you know, watch my back kind of thing. They were always the people that I felt like I needed to earn their respect or I wanted to impress. So I feel that even though I went to quite a naff [uncool] state school, quite early on in life I realised that I liked the praise from my brothers and sisters.

Gary Crotaz 6:45
And were you close in age with your siblings?

Cinta Miller 6:47
No, I wasn’t. I’m the youngest of five. And the next youngest was 10 years older than me. So there was a 10 year age gap. And then I had a brother, I had a brother that was 10 years older than me, a brother that was 11 years older than me, a sister that was 13 years older than me and another sister that was 15 years older than me. I felt that when… well, I learned at a very young age that when I came home with good school grades or good school reports, I got reward. And I got praised.

Gary Crotaz 7:19
And does that fuel you, people’s opinion of what you can achieve?

Cinta Miller 7:23
Yes, people’s opinion, definitely fueled me. And I think that stemmed from being fueled, originally, by my older siblings, you know, their opinions really mattered to me, as a kid, which made me work harder. For sure.

Gary Crotaz 7:40
It’s so interesting, because you’ve painted this picture of, you know, growing up in, you know, reasonably difficult environments and surroundings, but your mum creating this incredible home environment that enabled you to flourish. But then there’s this element of internal drive that you’ve built up, as you’re going through school to, to want to work really hard and achieve the best you can and not be held back by the environment around you. And so there’s this sort of different dynamics all shaping the person you’re becoming through those formative kind of teenage years. So as you come out of school, and you made it to the London College of Fashion, I think didn’t you? What did that journey look like? Where you started to see a direction ahead and start to think about what it was you wanted to become?

Cinta Miller 8:32
I was one of those kids that used to go up to London and buy The Stage newspaper at 14 and read the ads in the back of The Stage. And I could never quite decide which thing I wanted to do. When I auditioned at this particular college, which was in Oxford, Oxpens College, for this Performing Arts course, I got accepted, but I left that audition and went home feeling really low because I thought, actually nobody in that class takes it seriously. But I do, and what I’d learned up until that point is that everything I did, I put my heart and soul into, whether it be a GCSE art exam, maths exam, a dance competition for the youth club, cooking dinner for my mum on a Sunday to surprise her, I always put my heart and soul into everything. And I couldn’t bear being in a three-year course with people that weren’t really taking it that seriously. So I changed the course, I decided to do fashion. And again, the first thing that happened to me when I enrolled in the fashion course is that I took my work in, we got given this, it was like a little small project to do over the weekend, just so our tutor could monitor where we all were, creatively. And I remember bringing my work in on a Monday morning and my teacher looked at me, looked at my work, looked at me, looked at my work, and almost looked at me with disgust. And was like, Did you paint these? Did you draw these? And I said, Yeah. And she was like, You didn’t trace them? And I went, Well they’re on watercolour paper. So you can’t trace on that paper it’s not see-through. And everybody looked at me and was like, No way did you draw that? Because I’m, you know, I’m just really artistic. Straight away, my teacher kind of put me on the back foot. So I felt like I had to really, really excel in class in front of her own eyes, so she could see that I was good at it. I always felt like I had to prove what I was doing. And I, I did that course for a year. And whilst I was on that course, just had my tutor forever saying to me, You’re really creative. But I just don’t know if you, if you’ve got the commitment. I just don’t know if you can commit. I just don’t know if you’ve got a commitment for this career. You know, this, this career is hard work. And I thought, Wow, I’m getting the bus for an hour and a half, from Aylesbury to Oxford every day. Like, that’s commitment, I’m having to leave my house at 6:30 in the morning, to walk to the bus stop to get the bus here. And albeit I get there, and I was just knackered, and I just, again, lost my enthusiasm. So actually, because she kept nagging me and embarrassing me, I ended up leaving. And I thought, right, okay, maybe I should just get a job and earn some money. So I got this job, registered for temp work. And I got a job at a life insurance company. And my job was to take the staples out of stapled pieces of paper, people’s life insurance notes that were stapled, I was to take the paper clips out and then file them properly. And after two days, my fingers were blistered, and I just thought, is this what my life is going to be? So I left.

Gary Crotaz 12:06
It’s interesting, the themes that come through that are so powerful are this inner drive and commitment that you’ve always had, to some extent, driven by, you know, people, even from a young age, not believing that you’re capable of achieving as much as you think you’re capable of. And it comes back to this sort of passion and drive that you have to make something of yourself. And that story keeps coming through and through and through in all these different scenarios that you’ve been in. And then when you do have an experience of being outside of that environment, that job didn’t work out, because you very quickly saw, this isn’t me.

Cinta Miller 12:49
So I was there for two days, my fingers hurt. And I sat in that room. And I looked around the office, and it was one of those huge offices with about 1,000 desks in them. And I left. And I remember going back to the recruitment agency, and saying to them, No, that wasn’t for me, didn’t like it, what else have you got, I need something more creative. And then the next job they gave me was… I think they wanted to teach me a lesson because I thought, they probably thought I was being a bit cocky! The next job they gave me was sitting in a factory with these butterflies that were attached to… these paper butterflies that were attached to an elastic band. And you would have to twist the elastic band and then slide the butterfly into an envelope. So what would happen is the person that received this envelope would open the envelope and the butterfly would fly out. And basically it was marketing, marketing material. So again, I sat in this room, winding up butterflies for two days, and essentially winding myself up. Because I thought, What am I doing? This is worse than the thing I did before! So off I trundled back to the recruitment place, said to them, you know, can’t do that. I can’t do that, you know, you know, I told you I’m really academic. You know, I’ve, you know, I’ve got these amazing GCSEs, I’m really creative. And, you know, I’ve got my head screwed on and I’m a hard worker, and I’m a fast learner. So they were like, Okay, well, why don’t you go back to the life insurance company, and you can work on group pensions. And now I’m entering numbers onto a computer. Morning, noon, and night. Literally, this person’s pension number, this person’s this, this person’s date of birth, this person’s address, calculating this, entering it, printing off a certificate, doing another one. And the guy, the floor manager used to come over and put his hands on his hips going, Right, who’s going to who’s going to enter the most data today? And there was like this really smug lad on there that was really fast on the computer. And he used to always win. And I actually remember saying to my supervisor on that floor, God don’t, aren’t you bored. And he actually fired me for saying it. Because I said to him, Aren’t you bored in this job? And then I was sacked.

Gary Crotaz 15:27
So I talked to a lot of the people that I work with, in coaching, about creating an environment that plays to their strengths, their natural talents and strengths. And they can describe the two ends of the spectrum. At one end of the spectrum, they can describe what it feels like where they’re in an environment that plays to their natural talents and strengths, and they feel at home. They feel it’s easy, they feel it’s fun, they feel like they look forward to going to work. But then they can also describe very clearly what it feels like when they’re in an environment that doesn’t play to their strengths. And this thing that you’re talking about here, it’s so interesting, that moment when you said, I turned to my boss, and I was like, Aren’t you bored? And what did it feel like to be you, right at that moment, when you, you just felt, I’ve got to say it, I’ve got to say it?

Cinta Miller 16:21
If I’m honest, I’ll never forget that day, because in that office, I was made… because I was an office junior I was made to feel quite worthless. And when I turned around and said to my boss, Aren’t you bored? It was almost like he used his superiority to belittle me in front of everyone. He took me in the office and he was like, Cinta. You know, this clearly isn’t for you. I need a team that are productive, I need a team that are focused, I need a team that are determined, I need a team that have got their sights set on the goal. You know, you could have a very promising career here. But obviously, this is not for you. I think you know, after today, we should call it quits. And I left there, as I said, you know, no college education, not doing the course I wanted to do and now not earning any money. But I left there thinking, thank God. And actually, what I will do is, I’m going to do something that makes that guy that’s just fired me, look back, you know, maybe stumble across me one day and go, Wow, that girl worked for me once and I sacked her. And actually, it made me want to kind of get to a position where he almost felt, like, belittled by whatever position I decided to take over. I suppose he gave me that drive to do better than him, is what I’m trying to say. When he was like, you know, People come to this company, because it’s got great career opportunities, and they have their eyes set on the prize, you clearly don’t have that. This company, you know, you’re not a good fit for this company. I definitely don’t want to be sat in an office morning, noon and night, in the town that I grew up in, married to someone that was probably two years above me at the same school, or lived two streets away, whose families know each other, and have kids to go to the same school that I went to. That is not my life. And I remember sitting in my bedroom at home and thinking, hold on a minute? My tutor at college makes me feel like I wasn’t enough. But actually, if she was any better, she wouldn’t be teaching. She’d be doing what we’re all trying to strive to do on that course. But maybe she isn’t as creative as me. And maybe probably didn’t want the best for me. So I need to prove her wrong. And maybe this guy sees that actually I’ve got a bit of sparkle about me. And a bit of pizzazz. And actually, I make him look dull in his office, which is why he got rid of me. So I thought, Actually Cinta, you have got sparkle, you have got pizzazz. Just do what you want. Just follow your own thing. So at that point, I thought, why did, why on earth did I do fashion at Oxford College? Why did I not go to London College of Fashion. So I applied to London College of Fashion, got accepted immediately. And started.

Gary Crotaz 19:38
So that was a real, that was a real moment of clarity?

Cinta Miller 19:43
Yeah, absolutely!

Gary Crotaz 19:44
You pulled together all those experiences. But actually what you thought about was what does it mean for you? And what does it mean for your path ahead? It wasn’t just looking back on those experiences and saying, Well, this wasn’t right for me, and this wasn’t much fun. And you know, this wasn’t a job that I should be pursuing, you know, going forward. It was actually about saying, you know, What do I want to achieve and why? And what does success look like for me, because I’m hearing that you’ve got your own inner drive for success. But you’ve also got this strong drive to prove to people that doubted you, that you can be more than they ever thought.

Cinta Miller 20:26
And I’ll tell you, I suppose what The Unlock Moment thing is here is, this is a fact of life. We can sugarcoat it as much as we want, and we can hide from it as much as we want. There are people in life that are not going to be happy that you will be successful. And there are people in life that will try to scupper your chances. And there was a real moment of clarity. Not everyone is going to champion you in life, not even your tutors, you have to champion yourself. So I thought to myself, Okay, I can go to London College of Fashion. It’s the best fashion college in the whole country, if not Europe, if not the world. Let me see if I can get in. And now I’ve got the best tutors in fashion saying to me, Do you know what? Not, but is this career for you? I’ve got these tutors going, We need you at our at our college. We need you, the likes of you, in our alumni. Because you’ve got drive, you’ve got chutzpah, you’re creative. You’ve got your own ideas, you’re visionary. It was about placing myself amongst the right people.

Gary Crotaz 21:45
A quick one for you. I’m getting a lot of feedback from listeners to say they’d like to know more about my own philosophy on how to achieve an Unlock Moment in your life or career. Go and buy a copy of my book, The IDEA Mindset, to discover your identity and direction for a future with engagement and authenticity. In it, you’ll discover more about my own story, my learnings on how to achieve clarity and change. And of course, lots of interesting self-study exercises in bite-sized modules. You can get The IDEA Mindset in physical book, ebook and audiobook format, from all the usual sources. Thanks for listening. And back to the conversation. Taking your first significant steps into one of the most challenging, most uncertain, most competitive industries that there is actually what had been formed in you already by the age of 18 was the foundations to give you the resilience to survive and thrive and succeed in that environment. But it was already there in the 18 year old Cinta from all those experiences.

Cinta Miller 22:55
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that paired with a mum that raised me to be, if you’re not working, you know, if you’re not in education, you’ve got to be working. And if you’re living at home, you’re paying rent. That was basically my situation. So when I used to commute into London, I would take these magazines from the Tube, these free magazines, and there was this one called the Metro. And in the Metro there used to be these classified ads or these coupons to go for a free haircut at Toni & Guy. And so I used to rip them out and go and queue up at the academy to go and be a model to get my haircut. And I’ll never ever forget the first time one of the art directors said, Oh, can I actually cut your hair on stage and use your hair for a demonstration? I was like, Yeah, fine. And I remember sat in this classroom and everyone looked really cool. And all the guys are really hot. And all the girls were really pretty. And everyone dressed super-trendy. And then in between cutting my hair, the guys would be going, Oh, yeah, you working on that show at London Fashion Week this week? And they’d be like, Oh, yeah, we’re, you know, we’re working backstage at Missoni or we’re working backstage at Alexander McQueen. Oh, are you coming to the Stella McCartney show? So I’d be hearing all these buzzwords, you know, in this room, this academy, and then I’d hear other people, other students in the room coming out to people going, Oh, you know, can I come and assist you? If you need any help? I’ll clean your brushes. And the next time I’d go I’d be like, Oh, did you do that Stella McCartney show? Yeah, yeah, yeah! You know, there was always this amazing, this amazing atmosphere at Toni & Guy. And I remember going into college and saying to people, Oh, you know, I’ve got my hair cut at Toni & Guy, and it was, Oh my god, Toni & Guy’s so cool, so and so gets their hair cut there. And then I remember seeing Toni & Guy quoted in fashion magazines and you know, like, just like teen magazines like More magazine and Mizz. And I’d be like, these, these guys are really cool. They cut hair. But they’re backstage at Fashion Week, they mingle with celebrities. Like, these guys are rock stars! I want to be, I want to be one of those, I want to be part of that. And it was at that moment, I thought, Actually, I could spend another two years at London College of Fashion studying to do fashion to then go on to university. Or I could maybe get a job at Toni & Guy. So the next time I got my haircut, I asked the question. I was like, Um, if I, if I wanted to train here, do I have to pay for a course, or do you do internships? And they were like, Oh, no, no, no, we do internships. And basically, that was exactly what I went there for, for that piece of information. I literally took the phone number. I had to make a phone call to the head office. And they did an open day. I went to the open day. I got an interview, I got accepted. And then that was it. I took the job on at Toni & Guy as an assistant, an apprentice hairdresser. But I started at the academy. So I was learning with all the art directors from day one. So straightaway, I was going backstage at London Fashion Week, cleaning their brushes, carrying their bags. But I was always the first there and the last to leave. Even if it meant, you know, sweeping hair up backstage at a show. I was the first one there, the last one to leave. But guess what, when it came to doing the bigger shows at London Fashion Week, I was always the first to be asked. So it was always making yourself, you know, available. Out of all the people that were assistants at Toni & Guy at the time, I lived the furthest, I had the least money. Everyone was just jumping on a tube. I was getting a train and a tube. But I just wouldn’t let any hurdles get in my way. Oh Cinta, can you come work on a show with us on Sunday? There wouldn’t be any trains on a Sunday. I would get up extra early, I would take a bus, I would take a coach, I would ask a neighbour to drop me off. I would barter with my brothers to iron their T shirts for a month to give me a lift. I’d do any which way, I would, I’d make sure I was there. I was completely, completely resilient.

Gary Crotaz 27:12
And what really challenged you in those early years?

Cinta Miller 27:16
In those early years, the things that challenged me the most was, I was really financially challenged at that stage. I just knew that I did not want to end up in the town I grew up in. I knew, I knew that I had a set of skills that could essentially change my life. I just needed to be set in the right environment. And being financially challenged meant I had to work even harder. I had to work harder for my tips. I had to be really good, quick. I had no chance, no choice but to be good at it. And very good at it in a very quick amount of time. So if I was shampooing your hair, listen, I bet you bottom dollar you’d never get a head massage like it, the head massage I’d give you, like at the backwash. Because I needed the tip. I needed the tip to get to work the next day. You know, if I was blow drying your hair, I can put my life on it, you wouldn’t have such a shiny, bouncy, blow dry. Because I needed the tip. And then on a Saturday and Sunday morning I’d work in… I had a little weekend job in an art and craft shop, framing pictures, just to make ends meet really. But I knew that I had to do that job because I needed the money to get to work. Because actually, even though I was an apprentice, and I was earning money, I was on 60 quid a week when I first started for the first year, and my travel was 100 pound a week. So I needed to make up that extra 40 quid.

Gary Crotaz 28:55
And what was the first moment when you turned round and sort of suddenly figured out where you were in your career? Was there a particular job or shoot or something where you suddenly sort of, Wow, I’ve, I’ve made it! I’m with these people, I’m in this environment?

Cinta Miller 29:11
I’ve had three stages in life that have done that to me. And it’s funny, because obviously you, you know me well and you know the, you know, my roster of clients I’ve worked with over the years. As you’ve mentioned, I’ve worked with people like Craig David, and Anne Marie, and Rudimental, and Robbie Williams. And you know, I’ve toured with Ed Sheeran. I’ve done all of these things, but actually, the three pinch-me moments were… Very early on in my career. I remember working backstage at the Clothes Show Live, which was this, this fashion show that used to happen in Birmingham once a year, and it used to be televised as well, so the kiddos would watch it. And when I was working backstage at the Clothes Show Live, I literally thought, Wow, I’ve arrived! Here I am! Here I am! I didn’t know the difference between the Clothes Show Live and London Fashion Week and Paris Fashion Week. And I really thought this little fashion show in Birmingham was it! I thought I’d arrived, this was it, my career is, you know, I’m hitting goals. Until maybe 10 years later, I headed up my first Fashion Week show at London Fashion Week. Like a proper, on schedule, Fashion Week show. You know, the journalists from Vogue are on the front row, all the top fashion buyers are on the front row. And I remember doing that show. And the show wrapped and the designer came out and did the walk and everyone was clapping. And there was all this like, amazing atmosphere backstage. And I remember putting my backpack on and walking down Piccadilly Circus, just on my own. And I just cried. I thought, Wow, ten years ago, I was doing the Clothes Show Live. And now I’ve just done a real proper fashion show. But not a real proper fashion show that I’ve assisted on, a real proper fashion show that I’ve just taken the lead on. I’ve designed the look for that show. My name is going to be in Vogue magazine. And I literally just, I cried, it was like this little secret celebration, a real pat on the back to myself. My mum was the kind of person that, if you’ve phoned to kind of gloat about that kind of thing, it was really wasted on her. Because she didn’t get it. My mum was excited by if she saw my name on the credit of like Ten Years Younger, or something, she’d be a little bit excited about that. Or if I told her I’d walked past Tom Jones on the street, she’d be a little bit excited by that. But she didn’t really get the whole fashion thing. So that moment was a real, it was a moment for me. It was a real personal moment for me because I thought no, this is what I came into the industry to do. And I’ve done it and I had to kind of pat myself on the back. And it was a real silent win I suppose. I like did that little walk down Piccadilly Circus. And I literally, I really, I did, I shed a tear that day. And then the third time it happened was, I was doing, I was working with Anne Marie, who’s a really big pop star here in the UK. And she was performing at the BRITs with Rudimental. And I was going to the O2 to go and do her hair and makeup. Yeah, I arrived at the O2. And I was looking around and thinking, Wow, you know, I’ve ticked my box in fashion. But I’m at the BRIT Awards. And not only am I at the BRIT Awards, I’ve got an access all areas pass, like I’m going backstage. I ain’t hanging out in front with the riffraff. I’m going backstage, you know, I ain’t hanging out at the front, you know, waiting to see people with an autograph book. And I’m definitely not sat at home watching it. I’m backstage! And like, the gravitas of that for me, I couldn’t get my head around it. And then I went backstage, I got my pass. And I’m walking round and my kit case got caught on a wire. And there was rehearsals going on on stage, sound checks. And I remember my, my kit case getting caught on this wire. And it was dark. And I was like, Oh sorry, sorry, sorry. And somebody came over to me and they were like, Sorry, sorry, Beyoncé is just rehearsing, we’re just in sound check with Beyoncé. And I was like, Oh, yeah, no, like Beyoncé? We’re not talking about Caroline that I grew up next door to. We’re talking about Beyoncé! She was like, You know, sorry, just be careful. Like Beyoncé who’s like 12 foot away from me was just sound checking. And this guy grabbed my case. And he said, Hey, I’ll help you. Hey, I’ll help you. Where are you going? And he took my case, and it was dark. And I was like, Erm, I’ve got to go to the dressing rooms. He went, Hey, this way. And he took me through, and we walked through this door where it was light. And it was like, Let there be light! And I looked and it was Pharrell Williams! Pharrell Williams carried my case backstage at the BRITs. And I thought, hold on a minute! What is going on? I’m at the BRITs. I’m backstage with a AAA. With Beyoncé doing a sound check, and Pharrell carrying my case! Like, is this real? Is this actually real? And for me, that was like, if I don’t ever work in music ever again, I don’t care. Like, I’ve ticked that box. So for me, there was like, there were three, three really significant things in my career. Because they were all an evolution of the other thing that had impressed me, I suppose.

Gary Crotaz 35:07
And I think something that is really clear when you tell that story and I know my listeners will have picked up on this as well, is that the journey you went on was not something that landed in your lap as some sort of gift from on high, you know, you had to work really hard. And you had to make intentional choices along the way to put yourself in an environment where that path could set itself out for you.

Cinta Miller 35:34
Oh, absolutely. I definitely, I had to, I found every little niche going, and I had to act on it. I didn’t wait for somebody to do it for me. I didn’t ask for anybody’s help. I had to act on it. And, you know, albeit when I was assisting, there was hairdressers that worked in my salon that I would, you know, it’s, it’s actually quite sad when I think back on it. And not sad in a, in a sombre way. It’s sad as in, Wow, I really went through that. You know, it’s quite emotional. You know, I would, there’d be days where I’d say to a stylist, you know, can you lend me 10 quid till next week? And that 10 quid would be to get to work and to buy some lunch. Because actually, what I was was too proud to ask my mum for it. I never ever asked my mum for it. My mum had it, if I’d have asked my mum for 50 quid, she would have given it to me. If I’d asked my mum for 100 quid, she would have given it to me. But there was something ingrained in me that made me feel like I could never ask her, because I always wanted my mum to be my absolute safety net, like worst, worst, worst, worst case scenario, your mum’s there. So what I used to do is try and fish my way out of scenarios to not make them the worst case scenario. So, when actually looking back, probably, God, I was in some pretty bad scenarios. You know, I, I slept on sofas of people that I didn’t know. If I tell you, and I’ve never, I’ve never really told anyone this, a couple of people know this, because we will work together. And actually my old boss did. But there was a couple of times I even slept in the salon. Because I couldn’t afford to get home and get back the next day. I slept in the salon. And I would get up, I literally used to put, we used to have a beauty room downstairs. So I would sleep in the beauty room and lock the door. Or I would put all the towels on the seats in the staff room. And I’d sleep on like all these towels. But what I would do is I would wake up, I’d set my alarm clock and wake up at like 7:30. I’d shower in the beauty room, get ready. And then I’d go into the laundry room, put a wash, like put loads of towels on. And then I’d fold all the towels. And then when anyone else came in, it just looked like I got into work early and I was there folding the towels and cleaning the salon. So if the cleaner came in, it looked like I was just there. Oh I got an early train, my train got in early. But I would sleep in the salon. I did that a few times, because I couldn’t afford to get home. And if I ever told my mum that, my mum, rest her soul, would probably turn in her grave. To think that I would do that rather than ask for her money. And for her help. I don’t know why, I just got this, I had this thing that I just had to prove, that I could stand on my own two feet.

Gary Crotaz 38:53
And what’s very interesting hearing you tell that story is that I talk a lot to people about what you need, what you want, and what you’ll compromise to get it. So some of the people that I work with and that I talk to and some of the people who come on the podcast who have become really high achievers, are really, really focused on, these are the things that I need. And what I need is food in my belly and a roof over my head. But it doesn’t have to be a great roof. It needs to be a roof. And it doesn’t need to be exotic food. It needs to be food. And I’m prepared to make some pretty extreme compromises that a lot of other people wouldn’t ever consider. But that’s because I have extraordinary goals. And this is the route I know to give myself the best chance of getting to where I really want to get to, and that’s what I want to hear in your story. And where I’ve heard it before is with the kinds of people like sports people who are trying to become world champion in their discipline, it’s that sort of level where they take really extreme compromises. And they’re really focused on what their, what their minimum needs are, to enable them to focus in and, and achieve these really extraordinary goals. That’s what I hear in your story.

Cinta Miller 40:16
Yeah I mean, it’s actually really, when you put it like that, I actually find it quite flattering that you describe it in that way. But I suppose it really stems back to my mum, I just, and having five children, I just thought to myself, you know, my mum didn’t just have five children because she was just a single mom and had… my, you know, my dad got killed in an accident when I was a baby. My mum didn’t speak the best of English. But my mum was tenacious, she never ever let us go without. And only as an adult, I really can look back and see the sacrifices that she did make. And I just thought, I need to do this, there was always an element of, so I need to do this, because actually, I want my mum to, my mum’s later years to be comfortable. It’s funny, I’ve actually got a letter from my mum that she gave to me. And literally a month before she passed away. It was Christmas, and she… My mum used to make this point that she, she would never really buy us presents at Christmas. And this particular Christmas, my mum gave me an envelope. And there was, there was some money in that envelope. And she wrote a letter to me, and it just basically said, Thank you for just always looking after me. You’re just such a good girl, thank you for always looking after me. And basically, that’s all I think I really wanted to do, was to look after her. But what that’s done as a result, she’s now gone. And that was the other next Unlock Moment, I suppose when I lost my mum, I really felt like my world fell apart. Not because I couldn’t do anything. It’s because that absolute safety, safety, safety net that I’d never ever relied on, that I’d never needed to call on. Except, you know, the time that I really, really fell on hard times, which never really came because I was pushing so hard to not let that really hard time come. But if it did come the safety net and my mum was there, was then completely swept away from me. So I was like, my mum’s gone, I don’t have that safety net any more. But then it was the Unlock Moment of actually, you have got it because I’ve created this set of skills in life, this reputation in life. And I’ve carved out this career to a certain standard where I’ve become my own safety net. My reputation’s my safety, my safety net, my skills are my safety net. My, my word is my safety net. When you called me up and said Cinta, I need to do the front cover of my book, I need a photographer, I need a stylist. I know my, my recommendations are respected because of the level of my skills, and where I am at my career now. I’m trusted. And that has all stemmed from my hard work. I’ve become my own safety net.

Gary Crotaz 43:42
So that’s interesting. So the moment when you realised you didn’t need a safety net was when the safety net wasn’t there any more.

Cinta Miller 43:51
Absolutely.

Gary Crotaz 43:53
And do you remember where you were, what the moment was when you realised that suddenly?

Cinta Miller 44:04
What, realised that I was the safety net, or realised that the safety net had been pulled?

Gary Crotaz 44:08
Realised that you didn’t need it any more.

Cinta Miller 44:14
Yeah, I do. I do. And it’s actually it’s a really, it’s quite a deep moment for me, actually. I… after I lost my mum, I went through a really bad time, just everything, everything seemed to go wrong, everything. There was just no, no structure. And I couldn’t make heads or tails of anything. And this went on for about a year. And I was trying to find happiness in the wrong places, hanging out with the wrong people, convincing myself I was really in love with somebody who wasn’t good for me. And it was just, the more I was trying to convince myself. I think, like I just said, I was trying to convince myself that I was really in love with somebody that wasn’t good for me. It’s because actually what I was looking for was that safety net, right? So I booked this Muay Thai bootcamp in Thailand. I went on my own. I got the flight, went on my own. And I embarked on this Muay Thai, three week Muay Thai bootcamp. And where we had to do these hikes every day as well. Anyway, there was this particular hike that was really hard. It was probably like a 10k hike. But it was really, really steep. And at the top of this hike was this huge Buddha. And I kind of swerved this hike for a couple of weeks. And thought right, beginning of week three, I’ll give it a bash. So by this point, I’ve made a few friends and so we all embark on this hike together with the group. And you know, I’m kind of like walking a steady pace in the middle. And slowly, slowly, I start kind of getting more and more to the back, because everyone’s substantially fitter than me, until I’m literally at the back. And even my mates that I’m walking with, they’re like, well ahead of me, they’re just like can’t be bothered to wait, they’re like, I can’t be arsed, they just want to get to the top and get back. So I, I’m so far back that even, you have like a team, team captain, from the bootcamp that walks behind you with a walkie-talkie. They’d even gone past me. So every time I went round this corner or wrapped around this bit of rock on this hike, I just thought, Please let me get around this corner, and there’ll be the Buddha. And I’d go around this, this corner and there’d be like another stretch of hike that looked like it was just leading to the gods. And I was like trudging up, trudging up, trudging up. And this hike was meant to take about three hours. And I’m about four and a half hours in, and I’m not even halfway up. So anyway, I remember getting around the corner and I see this Buddha. And I’m like, I’m on the last stretch. So it kind of spurred me on but I mean, I almost quit so many times. So I ended up trudging on, and I got to the top and everyone. I mean, they could have gone back a couple of hours before, but everyone stood at the top of that mountain waiting for me. And I got to the top. And when they saw me everybody cheered. And it was like I felt like I’d won the, I’d run the marathon or something. I’d crossed the line. I got to the top and everybody cheered. And I climbed up and I remember sitting on this Buddha, at the foot of this Buddha, and putting my hands on my face, and I burst into tears. Because I couldn’t believe I’ve done it. And everyone’s like, well done, you’ve done it, you’ve done it, you’ve done it. It’s the hardest thing I’ve ever done. And then I looked up. And when I looked up, all I could see was all these islands. I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Thailand. But you know, when you’re flying in Thailand, you see all these little islands. I’d hiked so far up on this mountain that there was all these little islands that you could see. So I looked up and I thought what on earth have I got to be depressed about? I’m literally sat here on the top of the world with all of these faces around me, that waited for me, to champion me with smiles from ear to ear. And I’m so lucky. I’m so lucky, I’ve done this, I’ve created this. I’m here because I’ve done it. I’ve made this happen. And then I thought to myself, but not only have I made this happen, look at how lucky I am. And then I thought I need to enjoy my life. I really, really need to enjoy my life. And actually, I need to stop feeling sorry for myself and being about a pity party, because actually, things are going wrong because I’m trying to chase the wrong things. I’m trying to chase the safety net. And actually, I am the safety net. Because I’m looking after myself. I’ve got myself to the top of the world alone. And that’s it. I’m the safety net. And at that point, if I tell you I skipped down that mountain. And the following week, I skipped up it again. It was easy, easy breezy. And from that moment, I came back, I met somebody, I got into a relationship. You know, it was the exact kind of relationship that I, you know, that I wanted. It wasn’t a relationship that I was chasing or convincing myself. It was a relationship that found me. You know, my circle of friends got wider because actually I didn’t need to chase the wrong crowd. Or chase certain things. I just needed to be around, just wanted to be around good decent people. And the jobs came in, my, and my career just completely upscaled again. Because going back to 18 year old Cinta. I found my self-belief again. I backed myself. So, yeah, I suppose that’s basically the common denominator in all my big, my big life changes. It’s just by backing myself.

Gary Crotaz 50:40
It’s amazing. And you hear that arc from the early past in your career where you said, people didn’t champion you as much as you did yourself. And actually come, you know, to the near part of your career, suddenly, you had this realisation that there were people around you, at the top of that mountain in Thailand who did champion you. But then you said this thing that’s incredibly profound, actually, you said, All this time I was chasing the safety net. Until I figured out that I was the safety net.

Cinta Miller 51:13
Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Crotaz 51:16
It’s amazing. So what would you… if you could spirit yourself back in time, and go meet the 12 year old Cinta that you described taking her exams, and looking at that life ahead, and seeing those people around her doubting that she could make anything of herself, and you could whisper something in her ear based on the life you’ve had, what would you like to say to that 12 year old Cinta?

Cinta Miller 51:41
I would say, Do whatever you want to do. Because it is totally possible. If you want to do something, just do it. There’s nothing to say that you can’t. Just do it. That’s the bottom line. You just have to do it. And if it doesn’t work, nobody knows. Because there’s no rules. Make your own rules, and just do it. Try and try again. Just keep going.

Gary Crotaz 52:10
I love it. And there’s so much of the story that I never knew and you’ve completely blown me away with it. So you’re on Instagram, you’re @CintaLondon, and your website, CintaLondon.co.uk. We’ll put the links in show notes as well. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For celebrity stylist, hair and makeup designer and creative director Cinta Miller, it was realising the people around her didn’t champion her as much as she did herself that gave her a powerful sense of drive, purpose and control, and made her fearless. She’s a person with incredible inner drive and commitment to go from a council estate and tough state school to building a successful career at London Fashion Week, the O2 and the BRITs, and through the ups and the downs of a career in the music and the fashion world, she’s one of the most resilient people I know and I’m so grateful for her coming onto the podcast and sharing her incredible story. Cinta, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment!

Cinta Miller 53:18
It’s been a real pleasure! Thank you so much.

Gary Crotaz 53:22
This has been The Unlock Moment a podcast with me, Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener, and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I am delighted to welcome Steve Woolcock to the podcast. Steve has been CEO of the educational charity First Rung since 2021. First Rung exists to provide learning and employment opportunities to support young people in the UK to achieve success and fulfil their potential. After originally training in engineering, Steve started his career in the steel industry in the West Midlands. He moved into training and development, including with major children’s charity Barnardos and First Rung was his first CEO role. We’ve been working together over the last year on unlocking his natural talents and strengths as a leader. I’m looking forward to hearing from Steve’s perspective about how he transitioned into the CEO chair, and what he’s learned about himself as a leader in his first year in role. Steve, it is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Steve Woolcock 1:53
Thank you. It’s good to be here.

Gary Crotaz 1:55
I’ve really enjoyed working with you in the last year and I was really keen for you to come on, because we’ve always had this very authentic and open conversation about leadership. So tell me a little bit about the journey that you went on that culminated in you becoming CEO of an educational charity.

Steve Woolcock 2:12
Yeah, like you, like you say, I started out my career after a couple of years out after university, I started out in the steel industry, which was, which was amazing but slightly unexpected. I just got an opportunity to do that. And actually very quickly ran one of the largest foundries as it was in the West Midlands, which was a terrifying experience with 300 tonnes of steel floating around every day. But then, as the years went by, I looked to change direction and got an opportunity with a construction training organisation called John Laing’s, which lots of people have heard of, to get involved in training and development, which I really found was a really good fit for me, I really enjoyed bringing in that sort of engineering-y construction side that I’d got in the past, to, to helping young people and young adults really get on that, those first steps towards a career training them to be carpenters and bricklayers and that kind of thing. And that moved on to, you know, a couple of other training organisations over the years. I must sound like I’m about 75! But anyway… moving through later in my 30s to a couple of other organisations, where I had some brilliant opportunities to run programmes where, you know, we supported people with disabilities, we supported people who have been long term unemployed, some refugees, some people who are homeless, to get into work and, and become self-sufficient and really develop. And I found it was a good fit for me, you know, I just really enjoyed the business side of it, you know, making training organisations work, they were commercial, making them make money, but really helping people at the same time, it was a really, it was a really nice balance that I found really rewarding. And that in turn led to an opportunity with Barnardos which was amazing. So I was Barnardo’s for six years, I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it, working in an amazing team and some incredible people there. And we have a national operation then supporting young people into, into work, into apprenticeships. And, and just to get their, you know, get their lives moving forwards with some specialist programmes for care leavers as well, which really does transform those young people’s lives if they can just get that independence and that first job.

Gary Crotaz 4:32
It’s really interesting hearing you tell that little narrative of the journey you’ve been on because you started in engineering, and within that, a role that was around training and development, and within that, supporting some people where you felt real fulfilment for the work you were doing. And actually, that arm of what you were doing became the core of what you were doing as you shifted into Barnardo’s. So what what was the drive do you think, that took you from, My primary focus is engineering, to, My primary focus is making a difference to people?

Steve Woolcock 5:07
Some of it was necessity really, you know, the people, you know, can reinvent themselves and have changed their careers, you know, it, and, you know, traditionally, like, my, my parents generation, they didn’t, you trained to do one thing, you did it till you retired. But it wasn’t, you know after doing, you know, being in the engineering environment for a while, I just realised that, you know, it wasn’t going to be that long of a career, you know, the steel industry in the UK was diminishing, the opportunities therefore would diminish. I’d grown up in the West Midlands, I’d gone away, I’d come back again, a couple of times, and I’d just felt I, you know, there’s a, there’s a whole, whole world out there, there’s a whole country out there, I wanted to move to other places. And, and just change, you know, change life really. So it was very much what, what is the opportunity and looked at different things. And, and it was the, the opportunity that the crunch point where, where we actually changed direction into training and development, came with, you know, I’d run a small business unit in engineering, and I was taken on to run a small training business unit with John Laing’s. So they wanted business experience, rather than training. So I had this really great training manager, but the guy who took me on, who’s an amazing chap, but he did, I always felt he took a real flier on me, you know, because I had zero experience in training and development. And we’re running government contracts, we’re running contracts with the Department of Work and Pensions, and I remember those initial meetings where, you know, they clocked really quickly that I didn’t know what I was talking about. But we did, we were able to sort the business out and to turn that side of it around, and the experts in the, in the training and development, in the contract management, you know, helped me with everything else. So you know sometimes you just need to, you know, you need to take a chance yourself, but you need somebody to take a chance on you. And I just, like I say, I just found it really fulfilling and realised that that’s where I wanted to stay. That’s where I wanted to go. But you know, look at, look at other opportunities within that. And that was very much around training and getting work but, but also, you know, there’s, there are broader opportunities there with welfare to work as it was then, you know, supporting, you know, working with Jobcentre Plus, and working with young people as well. And that’s similar to, it seems, to where I am now.

Gary Crotaz 7:24
And I mean, we have listeners to this podcast from around the world. So paint a little picture of, of what Barnardo’s is, that organisation you joined.

Steve Woolcock 7:32
Sure. Barnardo’s is the oldest and the largest children’s charity in the UK, they traditionally ran orphanages. So people still think they do, they don’t do that! And they provide a huge number of services for children through children’s centres. They’re one of the largest fostering and adoption agencies in the UK. And they do a lot of work with, with care leavers. They also work with parents. So there’s a whole, whole range of programmes and packages of support that they offer. And as part of that, they have employment training and skills services. So, so there, you know that, those, using different sorts of funds, different sources of funding from the government, from corporate sources, from local government, national government, Scottish government, to develop and support young people to move forwards as part of the package of, whereas they get to late teens adulthood. It’s not just about looking at the child, it’s how do you how do you support them to become a, you know, a self-sufficient, all-round adult as well, so that, you know that the organisation is over 150 years old now. So it’s been doing that for a very long time.

Gary Crotaz 8:44
And how many people went for Barnardo’s? How big is the organisation, do you know?

Steve Woolcock 8:47
Oh, thousands. About 8,000 staff, I think 15,000 volunteers when I was there?

Gary Crotaz 8:52
Yeah, sizeable. So talk to me about your, your developing leadership as you progressed through the years at Barnardo’s, and the role that you ended up in as your final role there.

Steve Woolcock 9:04
Um, yeah, I was, I was in the same role all the way, all the way through that, but it was, it was very different to operate. Or I was quite concerned when I, when I joined the organisation that, that I was a bit too corporate, I’d come from commercial, a commercial background. I’d worked for a charity for 12 months when I was 22. So I was quite concerned that I wouldn’t fit in and I wouldn’t get it. And in some ways, you know, it took a while to fit into that kind of culture, but it’s a very commercial organisation, actually. So they’re in a lot of government funding, so you have to be. But during that time, I think initially when it, when I joined, there was quite a few challenges. I think it’s fair to say at that point, so we had quite a lot to, to sort out working with the team and, and they were, you know, they were, just the commitment of that team and, and those around us was just phenomenal and really infectious actually. So I just really enjoyed working through that, you know, developing new programmes, and, and hopefully moving, moving that department as it was, moving it on during those, those years. But it really did, it did allow me really to think about how I lead, how I managed, you know, I think, I think during that time, I was a bit overwhelmed when I joined. And I probably sort of loosened up a bit as I went through. And one person actually gave me some advice when I left. It took us a while to get used to you and to get to know you. And, you know, maybe, you know, maybe next time when you go on to First Rung, just, you know, be you from the… tell everybody who you are, and not be somebody else. But just be, you know, let people see the real you earlier on. And I think that was brilliant advice. And if this, if that person is listening, she’ll probably be chuckling at the moment! But yeah, it was it was really, really good advice. And hopefully, hopefully, I’ve done that.

Gary Crotaz 11:00
What did you take from that when they said that to you?

Steve Woolcock 11:02
I think they were right, actually, I think I’d have had an easier ride in the earlier days if I’d have been just more open. And, and less guarded. I’m quite a private person. So actually doing this podcast is quite, it’s quite interesting and out of the comfort zone! So thanks for talking me into this Gary! But, but yeah, I think, you know, I almost saw it as a weakness to reveal too much too soon. And I’m quite, you know, I’m quite private in my personal relationships and that sort of thing. I think people, they don’t need to know too much. But, you know, if you are out there a bit more and, and just show people who the real you is, rather than taking a while for them to get to know you. I think they can, you know, they can, you can connect more quickly, and people understand you and understand why you’re behaving in certain ways. And what you, what you need. So, you know, we’ve, we’ll probably go on to it, we did work initially around looking at my strengths through the CliftonStrengths analysis, and some of them really jumped out like, yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, particularly around, you know, I need information before I make a decision, I need data before I make a decision. And if I’ve got that I’m fine. If I haven’t got that I’m at sea. And I, you know, I really, you know, get concerned. So those who know me well say just well, if you want him to make a decision, give him the data, leave him for 24 hours, and then he’ll tell you what’s going to happen, and we’ll be fine. We’ll move forward quickly. You won’t ponder about it. But don’t ask him to make a decision if you haven’t given him the full story. So…..

Gary Crotaz 12:31
Throw the slide deck into the room, shut the door, lock it, switch the lights off, and off you go! Did you, did you see yourself when you were at Barnardo’s as a future leader or not particularly? Or was that not an ambition that you had?

Steve Woolcock 12:45
I think really, really, because it, you know, I was quite a specialist at Barnardo’s. So I worked in the training environment, you know, so, so they, you know, people used to look at us and wonder what was in earth was going on, I’m sure at times, but, you know, it was, it was very much, I couldn’t see where my skills would actually fit elsewhere in the organisation. And that may not have been the case, actually. But, you know, there were some, you know, amazingly specialist people in fostering and adoption, and, you know, in social work, and I didn’t have any of those skills, I had the skills to do the job in, in the area I was in. And so, you know, it was very much a case of where, where, while I’m really enjoying this, where do I go from here? How do I develop? And one of my, one of my fears in life is getting stuck somewhere that I’m just not fulfilled any more. And, you know, I, dare I say, getting bored, and that and that’s, you know, that drives me on to say, Okay, I need the next project, I need the next thing. I need to do this, I’m not jumping around. So I need to, you know, do chunks of time. But, but, you know, I don’t understand if you change job too often because how do you ever establish yourself and really learn about, you know, how you develop in that post? But, you know, you do need to, I just, I just thought well, what is what is the next step from here? And, and that was, that was quite a big question in my mind a couple of years ago.

Gary Crotaz 14:14
So talk to me about what First Rung is and how that role came about for you, how you became chief executive.

Steve Woolcock 14:22
Yeah, it was, it’s great. First Rung is a charity, we’re based in North London, we’ve got two training centres down in Colindale, one of them in Enfield, and we have two teams in each. So we have what I call our vocational teams, who deliver all of the vocational training, so business administration, customer service, accountancy, and all of the functional skills of maths and English and IT and digital skills as well for young people, to give them the skills that they need to go out and get jobs. We have, and then we have our centre teams who provide all the wraparound support for those young people, so a lot of those young people need additional levels of support, school may not have been a good place for them, may not have worked for them. Or they may be just looking for a different way to go rather than a big college or a sixth form or a university. And it’s just a highly supportive, very positive environment in both of those centres with a highly motivated team. So at First Rung, people really, really do get excited about what they do, really work hard to treat each individual learner as an individual, and looking at all of the skills and all of the support they need, and packaging that around them. So that they can then you know, develop on the programme. And then we work with a huge number of employers in North London, who, who just really do go the extra mile for us and provide work experience placements. And often, very often, those work experience placements turn into apprenticeships, which we also deliver. So we can go on that long journey through development, work experience, into an apprenticeship, and then those, those young people stay with those, those organisations as well. And develop in the future. So that’s what First Rung does.

Gary Crotaz 16:14
And can you bring to life, I mean, I don’t know whether it’s possible, but bring to life with a story of a student that you know, a young person you’ve seen coming through that you feel like, you’ve really made a difference to them?

Steve Woolcock 16:26
Well, I think personally, I haven’t made a difference to them! But I think the team, who do have an understanding…

Gary Crotaz 16:32
I know it’s not you, Steve!

Steve Woolcock 16:33
So true! …they do have an understanding, and a great understanding of how to, how to… we talk about barriers quite a lot, and how to overcome them. So you know, it’s, you know, if this is happening, how do we actually move that young person forward, and we’ve had stories, we’re actually trying to capture stories, because it’s very difficult to explain in data, although I like data, in data, what we actually do. It’s about the individual person’s stories, and, you know, we’ve had learners who’ve, you know, come in, and been scared to come into the building, and then then, you know, really, really struggled to engage, we’ve had learners who won’t come out of the toilets, because it’s just overwhelming, even though they’re in a classroom with a very small number, there’ll be very small cohorts in that classroom, and we’ve got, you know, the team, the centre teams I was talking about, will work on a one to one basis with those learners and, and, you know, bring them out, support them, sit, you know, be with them in the classroom, as, as the teaching and development is going on, be with them at lunchtime. You know, we have the big open areas where we play computer games and board games, and that kind of thing. So literally go on the journey all day long to support those young people. And then we find, you know, they, they get, they pass their first qualification, they get a get a maths qualification, or they get an IT qualification. And they just, you know, the lights go on. And then we get them into work experience. And maybe the first one doesn’t work, but maybe the second one does. And then you’ve got you know, you’ve suddenly got a young person, you know, engaging on the apprenticeship, where they literally couldn’t speak to you when they walked in on the first day, but they’re there in with an employer, they’re developing with that employer, the employer thinks they’re amazing. So they’ve really got that, you know, that journey, that trajectory is happening for them where they didn’t believe it could, but you know, the team absolutely believed it could, but had to go on that journey. They weren’t quite sure what that journey was going to look like on day one.

Gary Crotaz 18:33
It’s so inspirational to hear that. And I mean, your team is really changing people’s lives. So talk to me about how you came to First Rung, what it felt like for you to sit in that CEO chair for the first time.

Steve Woolcock 18:45
Well, interestingly, you know, the opportunity with another organisation arose, I can’t remember, three, four years ago, well before the pandemic, and I got shortlisted for a chief exec role with a training organisation, quite a big one. And, and I didn’t get it. And, and the feedback was, yeah, you have a lot of the things we wanted, but you have no chief exec experience. And that’s it. That’s what we do with with learners. It’s like, yeah, employers want somebody with experience, but you know, the catch 22 is, you need to get the job to get the experience. And I was thinking, okay, so, so how does anybody become a chief exec? And is that really what I want? You know, where do I go from here? And what is the next step? And I’ve always been a bit of an opportunist, to be honest, in terms of, you know, things do happen in life that provide opportunities. And so I thought about that quite a lot. And like, right I need to think this through, I need to plan for this, and I probably should be reading some books around you know, how to develop in that area and become a chief exec and, you know, I’ve done it, I’ve got an MBA, so I did lots of work on strategy on that programme, is like, how do I incorporate that? You know, as the real front of the whole organisation, rather than the part of an organisation. And actually to be honest, the role came up through a contact who I’ve known for several years. And he had actually never recruited chief exec roles before. So he had never recruited that level, I’ve never been for a role like that. And, and he said, Are you interested in this? Because, you know, it seems exactly what you’re doing, you know, in terms of the, you know, the skills. It seems like the right job at the right time, you know, in terms of your next steps. And you live in the right part of the country, you live north of London. So yeah, I decided to just say yes, and go and see what happens. And incidentally, all of that preparation to be a chief exec, all of those programmes you can go on, those books you can read, I didn’t none of that. I had absolutely, I was thinking about it, did none of it. And so went to this interview thinking that probably, I’ve no idea what’s going to happen, they’ll probably laugh at me. And just, you know, the passion that we’ve been talking about in terms of the teams was there at the board level as well. So a lot of new, you know, some existing trustees which was great, a lot of new ones with loads of ideas, and, you know, really excited about the organisation. And, and so yeah, one thing, one thing led to another, and I got the role and I had to then make that crunch point decision, like, is this right now, because I felt very unprepared. And also the, you know, we, I’ve been working at home for a year, sitting in a room, you know, is it, can you can you start a new job in a pandemic, although I knew I could go in, and that was the, that was one of the key issues for me is that I can’t, I’m not going to do this if I have to do it on Zoom. So but because the centres have to be open because we’re working with vulnerable learners, I could go into work. And so that’s, that’s what I did. So yeah, I decided to just go for it and take a deep breath, talk to my wife, she, she said, you know, she’s very much you, you take opportunities, and if they don’t work out, you do something else. But you don’t get the opportunity to go again.

Gary Crotaz 22:09
And what was the moment when you decided, Yes?

Steve Woolcock 22:12
I think, I think there was an element of if not now, when. You know, yes, it’s not ideal. Yes, I could be better prepared. Yes, the pandemic was… side-swiped everybody, didn’t it really, and it probably would have been safer, easier to do it, when things were more on the level, but there was an element of, if I’m going to do this, opportunities aren’t just going to keep coming. It could be a long wait for the next one. And you just, why not? Why not see it, why not just go, go and give it a chance. You just have to be brave in life sometimes and do those things. And I think, looking back, there have been other moments in life where I’ve done the same thing, you just, I’m very, I like data, I like to think things through, I like to make decisions like that, but also, you do need to just go for it, occasionally.

Gary Crotaz 23:14
It’s so interesting hearing you say that, and I think that will resonate with so many people that, when you when you set out your plan for what you thought the path should be to becoming Chief Executive, it was something about reading a lot of books, something about thinking about how you’re going to incorporate strategy, all that kind of stuff. All great, none of it wrong. But in the end, also, none of it a requirement, actually, you know, and you’ve learned something about yourself that, that there are multiple routes to that?

Steve Woolcock 23:46
Yeah. There was also a piece which we’ve talked about during our coaching, was that I don’t, I don’t look or sound like any, any other chief executive I know, or I’ve worked for! And that… or behave to be honest, as well. And that’s, that, that is part of the, you know, the insecurities that you know, if you’re going to be good at that, you need to look like that. And you need to sound like that and behave like that. And, and that’s took a while for me to to get over, I think, and maybe I’m still doing that. But part of what was really useful and I really appreciated, was very much getting that understanding of what my strengths were, and how those strengths could really contribute to taking First Rung in the direction that we as a team, as a board, are going and I don’t have to look like anybody else. But if I, as long as I focus on what I’m good at, rather than trying to do what maybe I’m not so good at?

Gary Crotaz 24:49
And I think that, I mean that’s a brilliant segue into the subject of strengths, and for people that are listening, you know, who may or may not be senior leaders in an organisation, it doesn’t matter, the philosophy of strengths applies whether you’re a senior executive, or you’re more junior in an organisation, or you’re an artist, or you’re a sports person doesn’t matter, it’s anybody. A principle of strengths is, we’re just all different. And you can do this assessment if you want to, it’s the Gallup CliftonStrengths assessment. And it tells you what your natural talents and strengths are. But one of the core principles is that the likelihood of you meeting somebody else with the same top five strengths as you, and strengths might be, to be a great communicator, or to be a great analyst, or to be a great diplomat, or to be a great networker – you know, that kind of thing. The chances are you meeting somebody with the same top five as you is one in a quarter of a million. So the chance of you being in the room with somebody else who’s substantially similar to you is just really low. But society teaches us that the people ahead of us are people that we should aspire to be like, so people think of a manager they’ve had in the past, a chief executive they’ve had in the past, a chair that’s chaired the board in the past, or, you know, somebody in life that’s inspired them, or they’ve looked up to, and they start to go, well, so I need to be like that to be successful or influential, or all those kinds of things. I’m constantly surprised now as a coach working with senior leaders in all different industries in all different countries, how common it is, that it’s a revelation to people to say, you don’t have to be like those other people. You know, for sure, draw inspiration from them. Remember what they said, lessons they’ve learned, all those kinds of things. But you’re you. And in your Unlock Moment, is this moment of you discovering what your strengths were and starting to process what that meant for you as a leader. So talk to me a little bit about what your strengths showed up for you. And how that made you feel.

Steve Woolcock 26:53
Yeah, because it was it was very much like, as you said, identifying the strength but also identifying that those strengths can be different from other people who could be very good in the role as well. But it doesn’t mean that I won’t be, you know it, but it’s using those. So, yeah, the one that was like the one that made me chuckle was that number one, my number one strength was being a learner. Which considering how many years I’ve been training and development now, it shouldn’t really come as a surprise, but it did slightly! But you know, it is, I do love to gain new skills, I really enjoy… And actually, in the last few years, I’ve really enjoyed doing things, because you can get into a habit of doing stuff you’re really, you’re good at, because you’re good at it, you know, and other people can see you’re good at it. Doing something you’re rubbish at… So I took up swimming, and because I really love running, but I knew I was gonna be able to do it forever. So I took it swimming, and I was terrible. And, but bit by bit and learning, and learning from other people, and lots of YouTube videos and that kind of stuff, there’s some really good coaches on YouTube, you know, just, just that was, it was really initially humbling, and then actually really rewarding, because you learn exponentially when you’re coming from a really low baseline. So that that was a real, you know, that was great to just see that on paper.We talked about data, I am, you know, one of mine is my strength is being analytical and needing to research and get everything on the table in front of me and really understanding it and really getting behind the facts. And my team will be telling you that as well, you know that the data is really important in the organisation to actually look at stuff on it, you know, we wanted them to say, well, let’s, let’s dig into that a bit more, and let’s understand that a bit better. But also that I can, you know, just then, you know, take that and make a decision and run with it, you know, so that balance, you know, I think was quite good to see. But I’m, one of them was, you know, I was, I’m a relator so I work quite hard on relationships and I individualise relationships, and I do that, you know, in work, I do that, you know, with my kids. And I do that with friends. It’s everyone’s, you know, I don’t have, you know, just a couple of tools in my toolbox and treat everybody the same. So that jumped out and and what did come out in the strengths was around, I do relate but I invest in quite a small number, I go for quality rather than quantity. And I really recognise that in myself. You know, I just really appreciate the friends who are the inner circle, who get me who understand me. And there’s that having that that safe space to bounce around, you know, challenges, personal work, and that kind of thing. So, and then seeing all of those things together. I was like, Oh yeah, that is me. But it also it also felt like that’s okay, you know, sometimes I think some of these things or maybe I take too long to make a decision or maybe do I really need that much data or you know, maybe I should be a bit broader with relationships and that kind of thing. And I thought actually, no, because that’s not me. And that’s, you know, that was quite a switch, an Unlock Moment as well for me. And, and it just takes, it simplifies things, it takes things away, you can just sort of understand and focus and just then just move forward more quickly. So I found that really helpful.

Gary Crotaz 30:20
And what’s interesting for me, I mean, I get the privilege of seeing you because we’re on video, but it’s an audio-only podcast so the people listening can’t see you. And so I’m going to tell them that I can observe you lighting up when you’re talking about these things that are your natural talents and strengths. And it’s a really important principle of this way of thinking. These are not things that you’re necessarily highly skilled in, like your story of swimming, the learning is progressing your knowledge or your skill over time. And it’s not something that you, you do because you’re, you have a high level of achievement at it, it’s that you find it easy to do, you find it enjoyable to do, you get a lot of satisfaction out of doing it. So when you’re talking about, for example, being with data, you happen also to be highly skilled, because you’ve been doing it for many years, but you love doing it, you love getting the data, there’s a lot of other people who are highly skilled with data because they’ve been doing it all through their career, and they still hate it. But they’ve learned to do it. And that’s a really important principle and you’re thinking about, if you create a future that is something that you really love what you’re doing. It’s about aligning what you do with the things that you find are your natural talents and strengths. And I, when I’m working with people on their strengths, you often find things that people were surprised to see there, because they don’t do them every day. So it’ll be something where they say, it’s interesting, if I did do that, I think I’d really love it. But I just don’t. So it helps you also to think about how you’re going to work to enjoy your work the most or to be most effective at what you do. Was there anything that showed up in your strengths, that was a surprise to you, that you didn’t expect to see there?

Steve Woolcock 32:09
I suppose in some ways, because self-assurance was in my top 10. And, and I suppose in some ways you do… part of taking yourself out of your comfort zone means that you, you don’t feel as secure. If you do what you’re really really good at, and you don’t take any risks… I’m not a huge risk taker, but I do take risks. You know, you do, you don’t feel as self-assured in that situation, when you walk in and think, Can I do this? As a strength came as a bit of a surprise. But, but yeah, apart from that, no, I thought, I thought it, you know, it was, it was quite, well very accurate accurately.

Gary Crotaz 32:52
So to make a decision, you gather the data and analyse the data, that’s your Analytical coming through. You probably talk to people around you that you know very well, which is your Relator coming into play, you may be reflecting on things that you’ve learned over the years or doing things differently and didn’t work out or did work out. And that’s that’s comes from your Learner. And you make a decision. And at that point, when you’ve made a decision based on conversations, based on data, based on learnings, how comfortable do you feel?

Steve Woolcock 33:22
Usually very, actually, but not that I’m always sure that it’s the right decision. But when you get to that decision, you do… if you continually flounder around and then make a decision and then change it the next day and that kind of thing, you end up going around in circles. And it’s quite a stressful place to be. Whereas if you make a decision, and a lot of this is you know actually, I’ve learned from my wife actually who’s been, you know, she’s extremely focused. And and she’s going to smirk when she listens to this, but she’s always like, let’s just do it because what’s the worst that can happen? And there have been times when I was like, There’s actually quite a lot that could go really wrong with this! You know, so, but it is actually really helpful when you’ve got somebody alongside you to say, What’s the worst that can happen? You go, Yeah, you’re right, and deal with it.

Gary Crotaz 34:16
And the listener here will have tuned into what you just said. So you said, you think carefully about making your decisions using data, learning, talking to people. At the point you make that decision you feel comfortable to move forward without wobbling too much, because, and that’s that self-assurance, that’s what self-assurance sounds like, it sounds like an inner compass that once you’ve decided you you go. Your number three strength is deliberative. Where you think about, deliberative is being a bit like a lawyer or a risk manager. It’s always thinking about, if there are 50 boxes we’ve got to tick before we can move forward, we’d better tick all the boxes So the bit where your wife says, let’s just do it, what’s the worst that can happen? It’s the deliberative in you that’s going, I can think of a really long list of the worst things that can happen! Because that’s, you know, that’s the sort of the health and safety mindset. So, you know, you can hear, and this is what happens with people, when they tune into their strengths, you can hear it all coming through. And if you can, if you can play it in a really powerful way, it can be so effective, it can be you at your absolute best, but also, these top strengths, because they are you all the time, in a really big way, can trip you up too. So, you know, self-assurance played at the wrong time, when you need sometimes to be a bit more, you know, mindful of risk, or, you know, wanting data, when there’s time pressure, and you just need to move, you know, you’ve got to learn, and I know you’ve developed this over time, as well, you’ve got to learn how and when to play these strengths. It’s not just a question of 100 miles an hour all the time, straight into your strengths. So are there situations, you know, as you’ve emerged into, you know, into your CEO role where you’ve, you’ve changed the way you’ve led? Or you’re developed as a leader, do you think?

Steve Woolcock 36:12
Yeah, I think I did, I did really take on board just being a little bit more open at the beginning. And that was quite refreshing actually, because I was also less worried of whether people warmed to me or not, it’s like, well, you know, this is it, really, we’re just gonna go for it. So, but I think, I think we moved faster as a result, and pulled together as a team faster, because of that, both within the organisation and a board level. But I think, also, just some of what you’ve said there actually, in terms of I haven’t, there were systems and processes that just weren’t there, we’ve had to build a lot, you know, build a data team, and that kind of thing. And so we have had to make decisions where we didn’t, I didn’t have as much data as I wanted. And then, you know, the, there’ve been some nasty surprises as well, you know, it’s been a very turbulent time with the pandemic and that kind of thing. So we’ve had to change direction and focus on different things. And, and so whereas I’d like to have a plan that’s based on data, and ABCD, and we’ll do it in that order… But this time we’ve had to continually change direction and mould around that, whilst hopefully, still moving the organisation in the direction we decided to take it in over a year ago, when we when we finished writing the strategy. So, you know, there’s an element of flex, it’s felt uncomfortable at times, to actually move when you haven’t got all that data. But as a result, we haven’t stood still, we were able to do that. But yeah, people do look to you, and, you know, there’s, you know, there’s that, you just, you have to call it, and you have to then act in the timeframe, not necessarily with… and that doesn’t necessarily give you all of the elements that you need.

Gary Crotaz 38:10
Something that’s very interesting about strengths is that the three least common strengths, if you look at the population, are Command, which is a natural talent for leading, Self Assurance, which is the sense of confidence and inner compass about the path ahead, and Significance which is being in any way in the spotlight. So averagely in a large room of people, you’re going to have a lot of people that don’t feel comfortable with leading, that are looking to other people for confidence and clarity ahead. And that don’t want to step forward into the spotlight. So I always talk to people that have, you know, high Self Assurance, high Command, high Significance, about the fact that, compared with other strengths, to have those high is quite unusual, more unusual than the population. And what that means is not only that you’re thinking about how to use it to its best effect, but also everyone else in the room is looking to you to provide that because it’s not there for them. It’s not something that they’re naturally comfortable at doing or talented at doing. And in an organisation in a leadership role, and what you said there is very common for CEOs to say something along the lines of … this the first role where it wasn’t possible for me to know everything that was going on. And I need to find comfort with that. Because if your reaction to not knowing everything that’s going on is to try and know everything that’s going on, you become the bottleneck in the organisation. You’ve talked before about this idea of an hourglass that sometimes you can feel like you’re in the middle of the hourglass, and there’s a lot above you and there’s a lot below you and you’re stuck in the middle.

Steve Woolcock 39:48
Yeah, because well looking at… you know, my perception of the chief exec role was… I’ve been in organisations where you have one line manager. And there could be other people on the board or that kind of thing, but you have one line manager. So when you’re, you’re just relating, you manage upwardly to one person, and then down to your team. So, so that can be like five or six people. So five or six managing, managing the team, and then one up, and I have this picture, you know, that it was like that, plus quite a huge amount of responsibility to manage a board. So there could be 12 people on the board, and then the team as well. And there’s the chief exec in the middle. And that’s how I thought it, to be honest I thought it was. And I thought that’s hugely challenging, actually. And that’s, that’s hugely difficult. And I think that was part of at Barnardo’s, looking at being part of a… in the charitable sector that you know, that’s how it can feel, you know, that you’re in that middle bit. And I was like, Can I actually do that? Do I have the capacity to do that? And, and it was really helpful to go through that process, because I think that was, that added quite a lot of the pressure in the early days at First Rung. And I say the early days, we’re only about 15, 16 months in… it’s still early days. But actually the discussion we had around that, it was was really helpful. And that clarity that you brought to the coaching around, you know, there’s the chief exec, and there’s the chair, you manage the organisation and lead the organisation forward, you’re responsible for the strategy, you’re the custodian of the strategy, the chair manages the board. And that was a bit that was extremely direct and extremely helpful. I know, you’ve had a huge amount of experience in the charitable sector as well as the commercial sector. And that was really helpful because, you know, our trustees contribute so much, and we work with them on projects, and that’s all fine, to work alongside them on the project. But, but yeah, it’s not my responsibility to manage the board. And that took a lot of pressure off actually.

Gary Crotaz 42:00
It’s very interesting, it’s something very particular to the charitable sector that trustees are unpaid, almost exclusively. And therefore they’re there precisely because they want to help, that’s the reason that they’re there. And so they want to help. And so, and they don’t know, what the other 15 trustees are doing so, you know, it’s quite easy, and I’m a trustee of a charitable organisation myself, and I know this sort of sense inside you that you want to give. That’s what, that’s why you’re there. And actually, for the poor chief executive in the middle who’s trying to, you know, give a clear direction and a clear steer, and the team should be looking to them. And then, you know, if you do start to have sort of emails firing in from random people going, Hey, I just thought of an new idea. Why don’t we do that? And people start responding to it because, Well, that’s quite important, it’s coming from one of the trustees. So, you know, you can lose control pretty quickly. So your partnership with the chair as chief executive was, became really critical?

Steve Woolcock 43:03
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s, but that clarity had helped actually make that really quite effective. So that really works.

Gary Crotaz 43:11
Another theme that I mean I talk to a lot of people about, and I learned this from, from working with some really effective chief executives myself, one of the things that made them so effective was their ability and clarity around managing up. So again, it’s common to see chief executives who feel a little bit under the cosh from board, board members, chair and so on. And, you know, as the chief executive gains experience and confidence and authority, you see more that they push back and say, you know, we’ll do the things that really matter. But here’s a load of things that you might have thrown in that were nice ideas, or you’re trying to be helpful, but you didn’t understand the wider ramifications. I do, because I’m running the show. And actually getting that balance right of accepting the support and also challenge, but then pushing back and saying, it makes it impossible for us to run the organisation in this way. That’s an important thing as well, isn’t it as a chief executive that, that you remain in charge of the whole?

Steve Woolcock 44:14
Yeah, and I’m really fortunate because my board really understand that as well, we know what we need to know, which areas do we really need to focus on, where do we really need to bring value, and there are several areas that they really can and we really engaged those skills and that enthusiasm, but it is you know, the real situation now as I’ve gained that bit yeah, that’s a nice idea, but it’s not now, you know, but it could be, it could be down the track, but it’s, now isn’t the moment.

Gary Crotaz 44:43
So if you were talking to somebody who is you know, a former executive or current executive who’s thinking about taking up their first charitable trusteeship, they’ve never been on a board before. And you were going to say to them, you know, these are some of the behaviours or characteristics that will make you effective and not problematic. What are those kind of characteristics of a trustee that really help you in the organisation?

Steve Woolcock 45:12
I think just bringing, having a diversity of skills and expertise. It’s like, because where I find it really works is where I’ve got somewhere to go for, you know, to have like a board of consultants I can call on who will then get engaged. So they’ll bring that skill base to a challenge we’re facing or an area, a direction of travel that we want to go in, and really just embrace it. And they’re extremely busy. And that works, they can come and do a piece of work and advise and then just review what we’re doing and stay in touch as well. So they can come in for a while maybe and then step back while we get on and do it. That has been really, really helpful. So I think it’s very much, you know, get heavily involved in, in saying what you need from a board and then recruiting against that. So we need people who are experts in IT experts in HR, you know, experts in fundraising, or whatever those things are, so that you can see them as a partnership, but also, you know, people to come in and really help and really get alongside and engage with the team, when you get you know, when you get that trustees and the team on site delivering together, now we can post pandemic, that can be dynamite as well. But you also need to be quite honest about what you need and what you don’t need.

Gary Crotaz 46:42
And what is it about the team around you on the executive team that has enabled you to be most effective as chief executive, do you think?

Steve Woolcock 46:50
I think, I think it’s just enthusiasm to be honest, I really, there are days, chief exec roles can be very lonely, and I’m not sure I’m really, it can be at times, but having just people around you are very enthusiastic, and really passionate about the organisation, and really supportive, and will tap me on the shoulder and say How’s it really going, you know, and that kind of thing just is really useful. And, What can what can we do to help? is a question that comes up a lot. And just being honest about you know, what that looks like. I think as well, just in terms of you know, anybody considering chief exec role is, do get some people around you externally. I found your coaching Gary really helpful. But also talking to, there’s a couple of other chief execs I’ve linked up with, and we meet up for breakfast, meet up for coffee occasionally. But just having that really safe space for somebody who doesn’t really understand your organisation, but does understand the role, is hugely beneficial. And, and it is, you end up, you just talk about the challenges and yeah, and can give you advice. And, and also you can be their crisis point, you know, when when it’s really not working for them. And they’ve got somewhere to go outside of their organisation, and that’s away from the board and the team exactly is a safe place. And that’s, you do need that, you really do need it.

Gary Crotaz 48:15
There’s a strengths coach that I’ve worked closely with, called Dana Williams, who did one of the early episodes of The Unlock Moment. If you listen to that episode, she talks about the value of a personal advisory board, and how you pick the people to be on your personal advisory board. And I thought that was very helpful to the way it’s constructed. Her former role was as marketing director of Southwest Airlines in the US. So she’s again got that mix of sort of corporate, real life corporate experience, and also coaching experience. And then I did another interview with another coach that I work closely with called Dolly Waddell, whose advisory board is her children aged between five and 13. And she’s actually contracted them. So there are real contracts, they’ve actually signed, and they have board meetings, and they talk about topics, and then they give their advice. So it can happen in many, many different ways. You listen to Dolly’s episode. It’s hilarious the way she tells the story. So where can people find out more about the work that First Rung is doing and what support or help do you need from people if people are listening to this and thinking they’d like to support what you’re doing?

Steve Woolcock 49:20
Obviously our website FirstRung.org.uk. But also, follow us on social media, particularly LinkedIn we’re quite active on. Because the area we really do need support with as we grow is that we have more young people coming in, but we need more of those employer partners that I was talking about. So it’s, it isn’t an act of charity, let me tell you, because you know, if an organisation is at the moment, there’s a lot of organisations in London recruiting and looking for new talent, and the young people that come through, I’d like to say that most of them stay on with those employers. They start work experience, apprenticeships, stay on with the employer. Because, you know, they contribute so much, they commit to so much, and they’re seeing the opportunity that that that employer is providing. So if you’re, if you are recruiting in North London, and you’re looking for some raw talent, but who comes with a huge support package from a good charity like First Rung, I’d very much like to hear from you. And you can find me on LinkedIn as well.

Gary Crotaz 50:27
Amazing. And what are the kinds of organisations that have been really successful for you in taking on people coming through the First Rung programmes?

Steve Woolcock 50:36
Huge variety, actually. So we do, we do a lot of work with young people around accountancy, doing AAT qualifications, up to level two and three, business administration, customer service, we train teaching assistants for schools, and we deliver childcare as well for nurseries, so it’s quite a range there, but also with maths, English and IT, those skills can be transferable into a range of different industries. And we are developing on the hospitality side as well because there are so many hotels, restaurants in London that are really up against it for staffing at the moment, and we can help there as well.

Gary Crotaz 51:18
Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For charitable sector CEO Steve Woolcock, it was discovering his natural talents and strengths that helped him to define his own unique leadership style and bring his best self to work every day. In turn this enabled those around him to work more effectively as a team for the benefit of the young people they help. The work they do for young people is so important, and I’m looking forward to seeing First Rung continue to grow from strength to strength over the coming months and years. Steve, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment.

Steve Woolcock 51:56
Thanks Gary.

Gary Crotaz 51:56
This has been The Unlock Moment a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon!

Gary Crotaz 0:02
My name’s Dr. Gary Crotaz. And I’m a coach and author of The IDEA Mindset, a book about how to figure out what you want, and how to get it. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity, when you suddenly know the right path ahead. When I’m in conversation with my coaching clients, these are the breakthroughs that are so profound that they remember vividly where they were, who they were with, what they were thinking when their Unlock Moment happened. In this podcast, I’ll be meeting and learning about people who have accomplished great things, or brought about significant change in their life, and you’ll be meeting them with me. We’ll be finding out what inspired them, how they got through the hard times, and what they learned along the way that they can share with you. Thank you for joining me on this podcast to hear all about another Unlock Moment. Hello dear listener and welcome to another episode of The Unlock Moment podcast. Today I’m delighted to welcome Amit Patel to the podcast. I’ve known Amit for very many years, ever since we trained together in medicine 25 years ago – that makes us sound very old! Amit started his career in medicine and trained as a breast and endocrine surgeon working in the NHS. After five years practising as a doctor, in 2007 he decided to switch careers into the consulting and business world, first as a consultant and then in corporate roles – ultimately, as Director of New Ventures at the £12bn revenue international healthcare group BUPA. He was responsible for incubating, testing and scaling innovative and compelling customer propositions. Now Amit has decided to forge his own path, and is the founder of Peachy, the UK’s first truly digital health insurance platform, targeting millennials and small to medium sized enterprises. Amit also serves as a board trustee for Independent Age, a charity focused on supporting people in their advanced years to remain independent and live life on their own terms. I’m looking forward to hearing all about what drives Amit, and the remarkable moment of clarity that helped him to figure out the path ahead. Amit, is my great pleasure to welcome you to The Unlock Moment.

Amit Patel 2:17
Ah, thank you so much Gary, and you’re making me feel old with the 25 years that we’ve known each other, but delighted to see you again and hear your voice again, after a good couple of years through COVID, hey?

Gary Crotaz 2:32
Well, thanks so much for coming on board, you were one of the first people that I had on the list of people that I wanted to bring on to The Unlock Moment, because you’ve had such an extraordinary career journey. And I’m looking forward to hearing all about it. So tell me a little bit about where this all started for you. So, you know, where were you when you first decided that you did want to be a doctor? Were you one of those very young kids who always wanted to do it, or it came to you a little bit later?

Amit Patel 2:55
Well, I think certainly it came to me a bit later, I actually wanted to be a pilot when I was a young kid. And that was fueled through my passion for aeroplane models. And I think my thought processes sort of meandered as I went from, you know, this kind of notion of being a pilot, to someone who ought to fix planes as well as fly them because if something went wrong, what would happen? To more serious conversations and introspection around what I actually liked as subjects at school. And I think as I got to the Sixth Form time, where you have to make some key decisions about A levels and things, I came to realise I really like the STEM subjects, you know, I like science, I really loved biology and understanding how form and function came together in the human body. And I guess a kind of love for helping people. And that, those two things were kind of a massive draw towards a vocational career in medicine or dentistry or any of those sorts of kind of career paths. But I also was massively interested in business. You know, I was brought up in a family which was relatively entrepreneurial, first generation immigrants from Uganda, my dad, and India, my mum. And so you know, this notion of, like, revenue, margin, product mix, proposition, you know, all these sorts of things, albeit I didn’t know the words necessarily, but I understood the underlying principles, also was leading me to careers in finance and consulting and these sorts of areas. However, you know, with medicine, at that time, I didn’t think there was a second opportunity, you know, I either did it then or I never did it thereafter. And so, you know, be it an honourable profession and a career for life, I decided to take the jump and take appropriate A level subjects. I did maths, further maths, chemistry and biology and was very fortunate enough to… Actually I got into Cambridge, but got deferred by a year. And that’s how I actually ended up in Bristol.

Gary Crotaz 5:19
Oh how interesting. I never knew that.

Amit Patel 5:21
Yeah, indeed. And, you know, my time at Bristol was an interesting one. Thoroughly hated Bristol actually the first year, because London was like the big bad city where I came from, and Bristol kind of couldn’t compare in any way, shape or form. And it was only after the end of the first year that I started to kind of feel an enormous amount of love for Bristol, and for what it stood for. And, you know, I was there for 11 years in total, as a result of that love frankly. But it’s, it was interesting, the first couple of years, you know, as people do at university, I had a really good time. And I decided that I would intercalate to make myself more competitive when it came to the job market in medicine. And it was at that time that a few things happened for me, I guess. One, the number of lectures really died down, because I intercalated in pathology. And so I found myself with much more time. And in that time, my head sort of started meandering again. And I started… actually I was reading the Sunday Times one Sunday, and found a competition sponsored by the Times and KPMG, around basically writing a business plan for a charity to meet one of their objectives. And you know, for some strange reason, and it’s probably because there was a five grand prize I think, if I remember correctly, attached to it, I decided that I would just, you know, give it a go. And you probably will remember, Bristol medical school is famous for a show called CLICendales. Well, yeah, and you can imagine what that show’s about…

Gary Crotaz 7:11
I was never in it!

Amit Patel 7:12
Neither was I, but it was a hilarious show. But CLIC is Cancer and Leukaemia In Childhood, it’s a charity that the med students did the show for and all the proceeds went to, and so I approached them around building a telemedicine solution for children with cancer in the southwest. And, and you know, I took that from start to finish and actually applied into this competition. And basically that was my first foray into I guess business as an undergrad. And I won the Times KPMG Business Award for 2000 for that business plan. And then subsequent to that, you know, I started my own kind of initiative, I didn’t incorporate actually, but I started a prototype build for Electronic Medical Record based on a smartcard. And I went to VentureFest, I won prizes of the Bristol Enterprise Centre, and various other things. And, you know, it’s really at this point that I started to feel this sense that there’s possibility in doing other things other than the traditional track that I’d kind of picked in a vocation and moving through. And, yeah, it’s hard to shake off that itch to do other stuff. I have to say,

Gary Crotaz 8:39
What’s so interesting when I hear that story is remembering back. And there’s a lot of people in Gen Zs of this world who, who won’t get this world where, you know, your first foray into entrepreneurship came from reading the Sunday Times in real life, on actual paper, and discovering this competition, going into the competition. For me, I changed medical schools, I started at Bristol, we were training at the same time. And then I transitioned to Cambridge. How I found out about that was there was a poster pinned to a poster board, behind three other posters, so nobody else has spotted it. And, you know, I think today, if I hadn’t discovered that poster, if you’d never read that advert in that paper copy of the Sunday Times, you know, would our careers have gone in the direction they went in? Today, with Facebook or whatever, they come and find you, you know, they’re like this person’s going to be interested in my ad, I’m going to target them. So you can’t avoid it as much. But actually, at the time, it did, you know, career path did sometimes relate to a bit of sort of fate and fortune in that kind of way. So it’s very interesting. So your entrepreneurial spirit started quite early on in your medical training?

Amit Patel 9:49
It did actually. And I actually failed my third year final exams because I was at La Scala until three o’clock in the morning, celebrating getting the award actually, in London, and I was absolutely shattered by the time I got back for my exam in the third year, but, you know that taught me a number of things as, I mean, I’m sure many people who’ve been on this podcast before, failure is not something that, you know, people take lightly. But there’s so many learnings from it that make you a better person, I think. And, you know, that was an interesting time for me. But after that, I was back on, you know, almost like final year of exams, knew I wanted to become a surgeon, I got a professorial job with Professor Farndon, who was, you know, the leading surgeon in the southwest, and, you know, an academic surgeon. And, you know, unfortunately, in that final year, he passed away, so I never actually got to work for him, very tragically actually, in the medical school. And so, you know, it was kind of a weird time transitioning, it almost made me want to do better than I would have done normally, I guess, you know, more conviction to do a good job while I was on his firm, but I had a terrific time as a junior doctor in the Bristol Royal Infirmary, and, you know, I took up a number of roles at that point, I was a Junior Doctors’ Mess President. So looked after all the social activities in the hospital and started to work for the BMA as their kind of junior doctors rep for the southwest. And I took a traditional route after that, I guess.

And what did you most love about that work?

You know what, the camaraderie between the junior doctors and the other, obviously the doctors’ hierarchy, all the way up to consultant, but also all the allied health care professionals, the nurses and, you know, physios and whatnot. I mean, the the reality of life is, you know, worked in some very stressful environments, long hours, and a lot of people, you know, getting to the end of their tether, tension, words said that, you know, you wouldn’t normally say in teams, and that fueled a level of, I don’t know, relationship building and authenticity when you settled the scores and dusted off what happened. And kind of appraised it again, with some of the teams, which was just unparalleled for me. And, you know, the trust that you developed between those teams, it was just, I don’t think I’ve experienced that really, in any other environment, maybe L.E.K. [consulting firm] for a while, but the stakes were not as high, you know, delivering recommendations on strategy and M&A are quite different to saving someone’s life, in my view, you know, from a perspective point. But that sort of level of camaraderie, we started to establish in my new business with my co-founders, you know, we had to build that level of trust to be able to work together around an opportunity, where we weren’t gonna earn any money for like, several months to even over a year.

Gary Crotaz 13:16
So, you know, you’re in that environment in that incredible team with all of that trust, and you are building your career. So you’d qualified from medical school, and you were building through the early years of your surgical career. So talk to me about how your feeling about your medical career started to change over time?

Amit Patel 13:35
Well, I think it first started with some dissatisfaction. And that came in a number of guises. And I guess the first thing was, you know, medical careers had started to change. And so the European Working Time Directive had started to creep in and be implemented. So just for any given year of tenure, any medic was basically, they’d spent less hours on the ward or less hours in theatre. And in my view, a lot of medicine is an apprenticeship. You know, the more you do, the better you get, it’s experiential. And so I could see already at that point, that, you know, my seniors were spending more time in theatre, because the new guys that were coming, and girls, that were coming through, for example, just didn’t have the experience. And it almost felt like they, they didn’t have the conviction at that point to really make a success of any job that they were doing, even though that might not be the specialty that they were going to end up being in. And that, that, you know, just didn’t start to gel for me really, in the moment but also if you fast forward and I become a consultant at some point, you know, I couldn’t see how I would… the work life balance scenario was gonna get better, if anything it was gonna get worse. Renumeration would stay the same if, if, if at best. So that was a sort of, started to be a bit of a disappointment. The other thing was, as you know, from our year at medical school, the intake had just doubled, right? And subsequently, more and more medical students were going through. And without appropriate career planning for all of these people coming through, there were not enough consultant posts at the time when, when I was going through. And, you know, that caused a lot of pain for people, they had to uproot their lives and do fellowships, whilst the consultant post was sort of being made available. But for me, the issue was, you know, I wanted choice, I want to be an academic surgeon, I wanted to come back to London. And if after 12 years, 13 years of training, I didn’t have that level of choice then that was sort of unacceptable to me. And I was kind of unwilling to make the investment to get to that point, even further. And I guess all of these things sort of came together with the fact that it’s very difficult to change things in the NHS, and I’m a natural sort of operator in the sense that I look at things and the way things are done. And I always want to do them better, whether that’s a different process, whether it’s using technology, or whatever it might be. And I just didn’t feel that, you know, me as one person in this entire organisation, I could make an impact in that, and that I would be better off stepping outside of that organisation and trying to make an impact on my own terms, or under a different guise.

Gary Crotaz 16:48
What’s so interesting for me listening to the story you tell is that it’s so consistent in certain themes with so many other doctors that I’ve spoken to who either have taken the decision to leave the profession or are seriously considering doing so. And it’s this mix of, on the one hand, what’s amazing and unique about the job is you’re helping people, you’re saving lives, you’re in this team with this level of trust, because together you’re doing something that none of you can, just none of you can do on your own. And the things that people find so frustrating, to the point that they’re willing to give all that other stuff up, is to do with career pathing and opportunity and the simple practicalities of the way the system is set up and the inability to change. And it’s been like that for a very, very long time. I remember, in my own experience, I remember having a conversation with one of the transplant, consultant transplant surgeons when I was qualifying. And I didn’t know the answer to these questions so I genuinely asked, you know, from a perspective of learning, I said, How many consultant transplant surgeons are there in the UK? And the answer was something like 20. And I said, and how many people at the next level down are sufficiently qualified and experienced that if a role came up, they could reasonably get it and do it. And he said about 200. And so you think about the equation, you think, well, the 20 are not all retiring at the same time. But when one of them does, 200 people are ready to apply for that job. And if for the best one, they’re going to get that role. And for the other 199 they’ve got to wait for the next role, or move to a different country, or change career, not because they want to but because they’ve run out of options. And, and you know that, that’s not an easy problem at all to solve. But I think it’s quite important to bring that to life. Because a lot of people I think struggle to understand why doctors don’t want to continue working in the NHS, but, and it’s not because of the patients. It’s not because the team, it’s not because of all of those factors. So it’s really interesting to, to hear that.

Amit Patel 18:54
Yeah. And I mean, I should add, people often ask me, what was it, you didn’t like surgery and, you know, I have a fundamental love for being able to make people better with my hands, you know, not using pharmacological products and tablets and things like that, but actually physically taking them to theatre, and then, you know, there’s an outcome that’s almost immediate after that intervention. And, you know, there’s no, I don’t think there’s anything else that can for me, at least, that can be so immediately gratifying.

Gary Crotaz 19:28
So this Unlock Moment of remarkable clarity, when you figured out that you were going to change, what was happening at that time? And what made that the moment of clarity?

Amit Patel 19:37
Yeah, I mean, so I’ve been musing a lot about also this desire to continue to do something in business, whether it’s entrepreneurialism, or something else, so that, that had always been a draw since undergraduate years anyway. And I guess my final job was a reg job in Manchester. And I guess all of my, all of my concerns and reservations about my career, they were sort of accentuated during that job. And, you know, there was, there was sort of a process for me, which was like, you know, what do I do other than this, because the business world is not so programmatic in, in terms of career paths, it’s not vocational in the same, you know, linear path that medicine is. And so facing into the ambiguity, or the uncertainty, or the plethora of choices was really quite difficult. And, and I, you know, I went to a bunch of career fairs, almost revisited, you know, my A level days where I, you know, wanted to learn more about different careers. And, and looked to, you know, consulting, which, you may remember, we met at the careers fair in Bristol, at a stall, right. So I revisited all of these things about myself, and what’s available out there. And, you know, I picked three kind of paths, because, again, how do you, how do you hedge for the uncertainty of what might happen? So I started preparing for the GMAT, to be able to apply for business school as a way of diversifying my career. I looked at roles in pharma, which could lead to a career in something more commercial. And I also went down the route of looking at consulting firms and applying to those strategy and M&A consulting firms to really understand whether I could go down that route and get a generalist kind of foundation around big business and how strategy works. And you know, how P&Ls work and all that kind of stuff.

Gary Crotaz 22:01
And did you already know that you were leaving? In your mind? Or did it take going to these events to help you to make that decision? When did you actually know that you were going?

Amit Patel 22:15
That’s a, that’s a very good question. I think I only knew that I was going after I got some offers to leave. And I sat down with now my wife Uzmah, who you know, we all went to medical school together. And we discussed finally, the pros and cons of actually executing on any one of those offers. What would that look like going forwards?

Gary Crotaz 22:45
So you had a spreadsheet of some kind? A way of weighing it up?

Amit Patel 22:50
I could barely use spreadsheets at that point, to be perfectly honest! So it was a piece of paper with pro and con analysis. No weightings.

Gary Crotaz 23:00
Interesting! And could there have been a possibility that you could have been sitting there with an offer to go and do something different, and you decide not to?

Amit Patel 23:12
No, I think in answer to that question, I think it was a foregone conclusion. And I wouldn’t have continued with the process of exploring other kind of pathways if I wasn’t resolved to go, I think in hindsight. But in my head, you know, I hadn’t taken the active step of like, giving in my notice. So it wasn’t a fait accompli until it was done, basically. So, you know, there was a lot of anxiety around the decision for lots of different reasons, you know, whether it’s external perceptions, or what my family might think. My consultant at the time thought I was, like, crazy bonkers, to, you know, where do these career paths go? Most of them will pay me, you know, at least 30% or 50% of what I was earning at that point, because I was almost retraining. So there was a, there was a lot, many, many, many, many factors, you know, not least the most of those offers were, required relocation from Bristol to London, which isn’t a, I didn’t want at the time. So there was quite a lot of things to consider in the round and get over before we could you know, definitively, or I could definitively make that decision.

Gary Crotaz 24:37
So a lot of things on the, on the negative side of the not very well built spreadsheet! What was the strongest thing for you on the positive side that made you make the decision to go?

Amit Patel 24:51
Probably the fact that I’m in control of my own destiny? Yeah, it was a moment of taking control, rather than being subservient to, like, what I was dealt with or the situation that I was in. And, and actually taking an active step. And there’s that saying isn’t there, if you if you expect a different result and don’t keep doing the same thing or words to that effect, you know, if… you have to change, and you have to make a change, and for these sorts of things you need to take control of that change, rather than let it happen to you. And I think really, that realisation was one. And I think the other realisation was the fact that there, you know, as a person, as an individual, even if you’re a medic, or whatever you’ve been doing, it is possible, there is possibility in doing other things, even becoming the Prime Minister, or flying to the moon, or whatever it might be. And unless you’re resolved, and can understand that there is that possibility, you’re never gonna make, even you’re not even gonna put one foot towards trying to get there. You know, so I think those two things and the backing of people around me, so obviously, my immediate family, and Uzmah, were critical counsels, if you like, and sounding boards for me. And if I didn’t get their support, and their support didn’t come in endorsement, or kind of what’s the right or wrong answer, it was just the ability to talk to someone almost very dispassionately about something and analytically weigh the pros and cons of it, but the decision was always mine. And it was like a supportive conversation rather than a constructive conversation.

Gary Crotaz 26:51
There’s something very particular about leaving medicine. And maybe this is true for other professions as well. But in medicine, it’s pretty difficult to leave and then go back. Because what I say to people is, people don’t leave medicine, it’s not, it’s not a career that you leave, it’s not the done thing. It’s not considered positively. And in a world where within the medical career, as you get high up the tree, it’s incredibly competitive to get roles. If you’re the person that has on your CV that at some point I wanted to do something different, and quit. And then it didn’t work out, then I came back and tried to sort of ingratiate myself back into the system. When I left, I remember just knowing that the decision I was making now was one that I could not go back on. And so I’ve talked to lots of people about the idea of failing forward and going, I don’t know whether this next thing is going to work. But if it doesn’t, then the next step can’t be go backwards into what I had just come from. How did you feel about leaving? Did you feel that same sense of, this is a not going back kind of moment? Or did you feel there was an option for you that you could have gone back and carried on where you were before if it didn’t work out?

Amit Patel 28:05
So I think, for me, philosophically, however you want to put it, it was a moment of never going back, you know, it wasn’t going to happen. The only practical reason why I might go back to medicine would be only twofold. One, I needed money, and I couldn’t get money anywhere else. And so I fall back into the profession that I knew best. And, and you know that, that would have been a kind of, you know, based on real dire need, frankly. The other reason would be COVID-type scenarios where for the greater good of the world, more doctors need to be on the front line. And so, you know, I had my limited registration reinstated to full registration with a requirement to go back but, having three children to homeschool and my wife on the front line, it was very difficult for me to obviously go and do that. But those, those in my head would be the only two reasons, but otherwise, I didn’t think I would be looking in the rearview mirror.

Gary Crotaz 29:18
I felt the same, COVID for me was the first time you know, and I left medicine earlier than you I think, I probably, I left medicine in 2004. So it was, you know, COVID was 16 years after I’d ever picked up a syringe in anger. And I went and did my vaccinator training. And then really frustratingly in my region of the country, they didn’t want any volunteer vaccinators, so I never gave a single vaccine … but I was like, I’m here, I’ll go and do the training. I did the training on a Sunday, you know, rushed round to get everything sorted out, got my uniform, and then I couldn’t actually stick a needle into anybody because, you know, they had enough provision from the health service. So it was a bit of a shame. Standing on the edge of the diving board then, knowing that when you stepped off, there was no going back, how did that feel?

Amit Patel 30:09
When I did it, life was chaotic, because we then, you know, I moved, I was sort of temporarily living in Manchester but moved back to Bristol with Uzmah. I had to wrap up my flat, sell it and various logistical things for a period of two or three months before we moved to London. And probably the point at which, so I was too busy to really consider whether I was going to hit a rock if I, if I jumped off the cliff, if you like. But, you know, it was, I started L.E.K. [consulting firm] the week after my birthday, and Uzmah took me to Barcelona. And actually that, that was amazing. I felt really liberated, hard not to feel good in Barcelona, frankly! But you know, I felt very liberated, that I’ve taken that step, that on Monday I would be, you know, not donning any blues or gloves or seeing any patients, I’m actually going into an office and, and the excitement and energy around what that could look like, from day one, maybe day three, day, you know, week two, I mean that, that was so energising.

Gary Crotaz 31:30
And for the listeners’ benefit, L.E.K. is a consulting firm. So it’s a, it’s a business, management consulting firm that you were, you were in the office, again, you know, we’re working together there because something I said clearly in Bristol encouraged you to, to come and join the L.E.K. family, which was, which was, and it was great to have you on the team. So one thing, something I find very interesting in your career is that you’ve been through two career changes that have represented an increase in risk, and probably a decrease in income. So the first was from successful surgeon, you know, to first year or, you know, to early stage in a consulting firm, and as you said, you know, very significant salary drops that you needed to swallow at that time, because you’re going back into retraining. And then fast forward a few years. So you’ve made it through the ranks in consulting and then into, you know, the senior roles in a global healthcare firm in BUPA. And you kind of been an internal entrepreneur-type function really hadn’t you at that, at that time. And talk to me about the kinds of things that you’re doing there. And then this transition to being, you know, founding your own business. What did that look like?

Amit Patel 32:45
Yeah, I mean, innovation and venture build in companies, corporates, is difficult. You know, the, the only reason why I stayed to do that role was, was really because we had agreed as part of me doing that role, that there will be certain things you know, factors, environmental factors that would be put in place. So the ability to spin the entity out and raise independently of BUPA was one of those factors, for example. Incentivisation which wasn’t your traditional salary-style incentivisation was another factor. Now, the reality of life is, you know, corporates are very good at kind of committing to these things, but then undoing them as time goes by. And, you know, that creates a lot of pressure and anxiety amongst, you know, people who are working in these ventures. And it doesn’t give you wings, you know, it’s not the Red Bull that you need, frankly. And so they, you know, it was a really interesting experience. I mean, I built BUPA On Demand, which was a pay as you go healthcare marketplace, and we scaled that business to about 7 million pounds of annualised revenue. But, you know, just the processes, the systems, you’re very shackled around what you can do, because we weren’t able to spin out, and we were, or I was incubating that proposition within a regulated business within the BUPA insurance business. So I get I’ve got to points of frustration a bit like when I was in medicine, frankly, that you know, the levers of autonomy that you had, whether it’s capital flows, whether it’s a decision to hire people, whether it was you know, how you deploy marketing budget, or what platforms you choose, they just diminished over time. And, you know, if I get fidgety and frustrated like that, then I generally do something about it … is the way that I work. And actually, it came at a point in my life, I turned 40 in 2018, and, and you know, I saw… I don’t know, you get reflective over time don’t you, let’s face it, with age, and, you know, first couple of grey hairs appeared and whatnot. And, you know, I kind of said to my wife, I’ve done a lot of things so far in my career, maybe I should do things on my own terms, right. And I can see a lot of problems in the way things have been done in certain aspects of healthcare service delivery, or financing, or whatever it might be. Or maybe I can impact that by doing this thing on my own terms in a faster, bigger way. And it is a bet and you know, I’m taking a big swing. But I do like to think that I live life without regrets. And if I truly, authentically, honour that being, then I’ve got to go and do this, and I’ve got to leave where I am, albeit it’s a very safe, protective environment, we can really nice holidays, our kids can go to private school. You know, you can work one morning a week and you know, life is just hunky dory. But, but I need to go through the pain because otherwise I won’t be true to myself and I will look back after 5, 6, 7, 8 years, if I just continue what I’m doing, going kind of I wish I’d done this, you know, even if it fails, even if it failed, I wish I’d done it. So that’s, that’s where we are. I’m constantly doing that, like do I still live today with no regrets. Yes, I do. And therefore I’m still honouring that, that feeling that was really important to me.

Gary Crotaz 36:54
That’s so powerful. When you describe, even if it fails, there’s this compulsion to do it. I’m sure you’re better at spreadsheets now than you were back in the day. But I imagine that your spreadsheets of pros and cons that you would have had at that point in your career, the pros and cons, would they have been much different from the pros and cons that you looked at at the end of your medical career?

Amit Patel 37:19
You know what, I think the stakes are a lot higher now. And I, you know, what rings true is your point around taking more and more risk. I do feel like personally, I’ve taken a lot more. You know, firstly I’ve got family to support, back then I didn’t, right? And you know that I’m in the prime earning years of my life if you like, and I’m foregoing that ability to do that to pursue Peachy for example. So I think the stakes are a lot higher, and they’re a lot higher for the people around me too who have joined me on this adventure. So I do feel a sense, like a major sense of responsibility. And literally, I was just come off, before talking to you, I’ve just come off to a potential investor into our business who is a school friend of mine. And he was like, Come on, just chill out. What’s up with you? You know, I’m a mate of yours. Yeah, of course, I understand it’s, it’s risk capital, all this kind of stuff. And I couldn’t, I think I’ve kind of oversold the, the responsibility that I have to him, as an investor, to want him to understand, you know, what I’m doing and the product that I’m building and all that kind of stuff. He was just, he thought it was laughable, you know, so I am taking this very seriously, believe it or not!

Gary Crotaz 38:46
What drives you to want to take this risk and this responsibility on at this point in time more than anything else?

Amit Patel 38:54
Well, one, clearly I see an opportunity, there’s a commercial opportunity to do it. I think, you know, I didn’t want to work under anyone else’s terms to pursue that opportunity, which is why I’ve stepped out. And, you know, for, for me, there’s this ambition to build something. And, and to know that the first brick I put down to the very last brick and the windows and the floors and the roof and all of that, you know, it wouldn’t have happened unless I laid those foundations. And it’s really the first opportunity that I’ve had to be able to build what I think is a fitting culture for a company. Because you know, being in big entities, you can’t impact the culture, you have to almost work with it. Whereas you know, I’m very demanding, I’m non-accepting of certain behaviours and certain things. And I’m a very can-do person and and all the people around me find that challenging, but they come and join me on these sorts of journeys because they want to feel that too, or they want to get entrenched in that too. And that I think, is just a different level of belief, a level of ambition, a level of possibility, which I haven’t personally felt in other companies.

Gary Crotaz 40:24
And where does the ambition come from?

Amit Patel 40:28
I think that comes fundamentally from my parents, you know, they instilled doing better, getting, you know, learning all the time, doing the right thing, these sorts of things and, and, you know, it’s not really a material thing. I think material things are consequences of this underlying thing. But you know, for me, I’ve got my own family, I’ve got three beautiful daughters, I want them to look up to someone in their family as a figurehead who has done some amazing things, right? Whether that’s built a company, whether it’s, you know, use technology in a particular way, whether that’s made loads of money at some point, hopefully. But some, you know, that kind of sense of, you know, well, we’ve gone from nothing to something, whether that’s team size, or office size, or product and proposition, you know, it’s something along those lines, this sort of many, takes many dimensions for me. And, and also, I always temperature-check that with what other people say about me, and what I’m doing. And I know then that I’m on the right course, and this is all worth it or not.

Gary Crotaz 41:47
What does authenticity mean to you?

Amit Patel 41:53
For me it’s about, I guess it’s about this ultimate trust and honesty and integrity that you exchange with other people. That’s what that is for me. And, you know, that means, you know, no back chat, it means direct conversations, whether they’re difficult or not. And, and everyone knows where they stand. And you know, Darren, my CTO, will tell you, I can be very authentic, because we’ve had some very difficult conversations early on. I mean, to the point where he probably thought, God, this guy’s crazy, right? Did he really say that to me? But I was just being honest. Yeah. And I’d rather be honest, get it off my chest. And I don’t mean to hurt people or say it in a negative way, but just, you know, clear, clear, clear what I’m feeling out to someone. So they know, you know, how I feel about something. And I want them to reciprocate back exactly in the same way. And then only do I think you find middle grounds, of, of union and trust, which lay the foundations for, for your relationship going forwards, and to be able to do bigger things. And I feel that, that relationship building piece, without that I wouldn’t be where I am right now. Because you know, whether it’s you or anyone else that has made an impact in my life, I always seek to have authentic conversations with you guys.

Gary Crotaz 43:39
When I listen to you talking, I can hear the power for you of conviction, passion, belief, in what you’re doing, and why you’re doing it. And there have been moments as we’ve talked about, through this journey, where you have taken the harder path deliberately, to do something that, that really means something very important to you. So, if you look forward in 10 or 20 years, what would you like to look back on and be proud of having achieved in that time?

Amit Patel 44:16
Well, I think if, you know, I would like to think that Peachy will become a success and look back on that. And even if it doesn’t, that we’ve moved with, with conviction, we’ve pivoted, and we’ve smartly done something with the company, which basically impacts the world of healthcare for people. That’s, that’s really what we’re here to do, right? It’s to get people the care that they need when they need it, right? And obviously it costs money. So we’re providing a financing solution to enable that. And if I can make one small dent in that space, whether it’s us personally, or it’s us through others, because they’ve seen what we’ve done, even if we’ve not been a success, then for me that’s success in its own right.

Gary Crotaz 45:11
It’s amazing. So who, who out there should be looking at Peachy and going, This is a company that I need to be finding out more about and maybe, you know, engaging with? Who are those target customers for you? What is it about Peachy that that can help them?

Amit Patel 45:28
Well we’re, we’re effectively targeting millennials, and small and micro enterprises, when we end up launching our SME product which will be at the six month point of launch when we come out of the Financial Conduct Authority sandbox. And what we’re trying to do is effectively create a product which is more inclusive, and more digital, and more targeted to customers that don’t traditionally access private healthcare. However, you know, given where we are with the state of the NHS and waiting times and, and our kind of renewed understanding of health is wealth after COVID, I think we’re a company that are trying to make that whole process possible as an option for someone to go private. And then to make the customer journey much simpler and more digital, a bit like how you would use a digital bank account like Starling or some of these other banks. And so you know, we’re the new kid on the block, we’re here to change things up. And we’re here to use technology and data to make life much more efficient for people.

Gary Crotaz 46:44
And if you were talking to another 40 year old person senior in a corporate role, who’s thinking about taking the leap and doing their own thing, from your experience of your first while with Peachy, what advice would you give them?

Amit Patel 47:00
It’s a rocky road. So make sure that you’ve got the conviction to go after it. You’re gonna have to face into uncertainty, bigger uncertainty than, than you’ve probably faced in your entire career. Financially it can be devastating. And so you’ve got to have the ability to hustle, and hustle hard, so that you can maintain a level of income that supports your family, but also enables you to fuel the growth of whatever you’re doing in a way that basically makes it go fast. Because the one thing that none of us at this age, we really haven’t time on our side, we haven’t got time to slow things down. And I think the final thing is if you’re bootstrapping, and this is probably nuanced to me a little bit. It’s a very different mindset to spending a corporate budget that you’ve been allocated, versus, you know, your own money, which basically is the shirt off your own back, right? And, and you’ve got to finally get into that mindset where everyone understands like cautious spending, if it’s your own money, etc. But you’ve got to know where to spend the money and how to deploy it quickly to move to your next milestone. And I think for me, that was the biggest adjustment when it came to spending my own cash. So probably those are the major things I would say. And probably one other thing. Don’t underestimate your relationships. By the time you’re 40 you have got many, many relationships across different walks of life, different careers, geographies. Never underestimate the power of unlocking those relationships for your endeavours. And I think that is absolutely critical. And probably I knew about it. I tried to execute it, but didn’t recognise enough of that. And I’m beginning to realise the fruits of the investment in relationships that I’ve put in over the years, now.

Gary Crotaz 49:06
Amazing. What does the timeline look like from from here on? When are people going to be able to see and use Peachy for the first time do you think?

Amit Patel 49:14
So Peachy is launching in June, the latter half. So it will be available for individuals first. And as I mentioned, we’re in what’s called the Financial Conduct Authority sandbox, we’re the first health insurtech to be in that. It has some constraints while we test and trial the platform, make sure things work operationally, so we can only sell policies to 250 customers and we can’t launch our SME product, so all of those caps with a good headwind will be released in six months’ time and then we’ll have more products out. But yeah, check us out on LinkedIn. Our web pages are all live at http://www.Peachy.health and you know tap me up, I’m happy to have a coffee in our office in Hackney.

Gary Crotaz 50:02
Fantastic. The Unlock Moment is that flash of remarkable clarity when you suddenly know the right path ahead. For surgeon, strategist and health tech entrepreneur Amit Patel, it was the decision to take ownership of his future path that gave him the confidence to quit his medical career, strike out on his own and ultimately to found the Peachy health tech business for millennials and SMEs that he’s now about to launch. Amit, thank you so much for joining me today on The Unlock Moment.

Amit Patel 50:31
Thank you, Gary.

Gary Crotaz 50:34
This has been The Unlock Moment, a podcast with me Dr. Gary Crotaz. Thank you for listening in. You can find out more about how to figure out what you want and how to get it in my book, The IDEA Mindset, available in physical book, ebook and audiobook format. Follow me on Instagram, and subscribe to this podcast to get notified about future episodes. Join me again soon